Advertisers

08/29/2008 - 22:00
rocklock's picture
LHBA Member
Posts: 362
Joined: 2005-01-10

Several other forums that I frequent have advertisers. I am conscious that this board cost some one money. Why not have the folks that we recommend (million dollar rolodex for example) pay a small advertising fee to help support the forum. It would give the web master something to do and help the bottom line.

--

Dave --- Clean, Stain, Chink
For any additional questions fanning@aloha.net
"Worry is the misuse of the imagination."
Dan Zadra



Comments

08/30/2008 - 12:48
JD's picture
LHBA Member
Posts: 106
Joined: 2007-08-05
Advertising hazards

I agree that advertising, only for companies we recommend, might seem to be a good idea. However, this could easily become a problem. The first scenario that comes to mind is:
We accept advertising from the Acme widget company because they make the world's best widgets. Some time in the future they change their manufacturing process and their widgets are now junk. We still have a contract with Acme and are stuck advertising a product that we know is inferior.
It's also difficult to maintain objectivity and impartiality when you have advertisers. Personally, I'm usually wary of recommendations I receive from a site that has advertising. I'm not saying we would become the next LHOTI but it's a slippery slope.
Just my 2 cents.

JD

--

Bureaucracy is the epoxy that greases the wheels of progress



08/30/2008 - 13:21
rreidnauer's picture
LHBA Member
Posts: 1084
Joined: 2005-03-09
I agree with JD. LHBA would

I agree with JD. LHBA would be headed to the ways of log home magazines. It leads to bias and censorship, definitely not the vision of LHBA. We don't need to see that.

If it ain't broke . . . . .

--

Rod Reidnauer
Class of Apr. 9-10, 2005
Current Status: Searching for land
Thinking outside the vinyl sided box
My log model



08/30/2008 - 23:17
Ellsworth's picture
LHBA Staff
Posts: 450
Joined: 2005-01-09
No advertising

Thanks for the suggestion Dave.

Steve and I actually discussed banner ads when we started the forum years ago.  Having ads just didn't feel like the right thing to do for the LHBA, and we still feel that way. 

I guess if Stihl or Husky called and offered saws at cost to all members in exchange for a banner ad... well... umm... no comment :P 

Here are a few thoughts, to give you insight into our perspective: 

We don't plan to allow advertising on the forum, or to use the forum to sell advertising.  As others already pointed out, there are a lot of downsides and not much upside.   

We don't plan to do fundraising or donation drives to support the forum.  We recognize that the forum is an invaluable asset to Association members after they attend the class, and we're happy to invest in it.

We don't plan to charge members a monthly or yearly subscription fee to use the forum.  I know other forums do have fees.  Heck I've happily paid fees on other forums myself (forums like Glocktalk, Candlepowerforums, and AR15.com).  With LHBA it's very different.  Once you become an Association member, and attend the class, then that's all there is to it -- member benefits are free for life.  

We hope to add new features to the site, like maybe blogging features, photo gallery options, email service, et cetera.  We don't plan on charging Association members any fees to use new features.

I know this all might sound very weird, in this day and age, when most people try to turn each page view into a dime, and each dime into a dollar. 

Yes, it is totally different than how most other forums are run.  I'm not saying other websites are wrong, I'm just saying we do things differently ;)



08/31/2008 - 05:09
LHBA Member
Posts: 123
Joined: 2005-01-30
I'm In Total Agreement

I think advertising would change the complete focus of the forums. This is a haven for like-minded people to come share great ideas, experiences and, occaisionally some nonsense :) By allowing advertising, it opens up opportunities for discontent, spamming as well as people who sell inferior junk to possibly fleece members, who, by their very nature are very trusting and forgiving. I'm glad that the forums will stay at Rick's favorite price and I am amazed and greatful for all the great advice and tips given on here.

--

You will never find anybody who can give you a clear and compelling reason why we observe daylight savings time.



09/01/2008 - 16:34
Kola's picture
LHBA Member
Posts: 914
Joined: 2007-01-23
thumbs up to Ellsworth

Thats one reason I ditched TV sets..to get away from those dang idiotic repetitive annoying commericals where they crank the volume up 5 extra notches louder...and the reason I use my "pop-up blocker" on my computer.

Kola



09/01/2008 - 21:51
Will Dye's picture
LHBA Member
Posts: 130
Joined: 2007-04-13
Grateful for what you guys have done

I still appreciate the great oppurtunity you guys have given me to build a great home AND the oppurtunity to be free of so much debt and stress with the ways you suggest doing it. All I can say is Ellsworth, Steve, your families, if you ever need a place to stay in Louisville or you ever wanna come stay at my house and go to the Kentucky Derby you are more than welcome. It's nice to know there are still good people out there and you can find them.



09/02/2008 - 02:25
LHBA Member
Posts: 554
Joined: 2006-10-12
Amen Kola. I don't watch TV

Amen Kola. I don't watch TV anymore as well for the same reason, and that most of the shows are mind numbing.

I suspect that this forum(and the Association) requires much more work and effort behind the scenes than we are aware. Mr E, I was gonna shoot you an email on this one, but since we're kinda on the topic, is there anything that us regular old members can do to help take the load off the rest of y'all? I sure would rather contribute some time and energy into keeping things going than to have to resort to getting paid advertisements.

--

Current Status: Rummaging, hunting and gathering for materials.



09/02/2008 - 02:55
chadfortman's picture
LHBA Member
Posts: 363
Joined: 2005-04-14
Kola Your right

Look, listen and learn

Tv a joke its all about lets hurt are fellow human.
So we can make money off him ore her.
Lets stab someone in the back to make a dollar i watched very little.
Watch the crazy movie Into the Wild great movie and true story.
Peace

--

Look, listen and learn
A man who works with his hands is a laborer,
A man who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman,
A man who works with his hands, his head and his heart is an artist.
St Francis of Assisi.



09/02/2008 - 13:29
Kola's picture
LHBA Member
Posts: 914
Joined: 2007-01-23
TV and choices

Many folks think I am crazy for abandoning TV but if ya know me, I am a outdoor guy, even in winter. There is a trend happening where many others are choosing the same path (Hoorah!). I just read where people are not watcing the news shows like they used to. (Hooray again!). The internet helps us to be more selective as well.

People tell me of some cool shows that I would like, such as that "alaska" series and a logger one. I used to like orange county choppers too.
But I do not live a cave without any other form of entertainment. If I want to watch something or listen to music it is I who makes the choice and no damn commercials (yeah even the radio drives me insane). I collect a lot of DVD's. I have all 9 seasons of Seinfeld, many of the The Great Valley episodes, almost all of the Bonanza series, tons of westerns, many many NA Indian DVD's, tons of nature shows and DIY stuff. I am sure it won't be long before they release some of those TV logger shows and Alaska living ones on DVD's. I can wait. :)

IMHO The best type of entertainment is right in front of us and it is free, our gift from God (Creator). I can sit and watch the clouds turn into funny faces and shapes, watch the redtail hawk soar the sky and hunt, observe the millions of stars, smell the cactus flowers, and listen to the wind talk and hear the thunder rumble and crash.
Turn off the damn idiot box, take a nice refreshing walk and turn on Gods Nature Channel. Its live and free, no commercials and no re-runs. The reception is darn good too!

Kola



09/02/2008 - 13:31
belange01's picture
Posts: 16
Joined: 2008-08-22
McCandless

chadfortman wrote:
Look, listen and learn

Tv a joke its all about lets hurt are fellow human.
So we can make money off him ore her.
Lets stab someone in the back to make a dollar i watched very little.
Watch the crazy movie Into the Wild great movie and true story.
Peace

Into the Wild is a must see and a must read. I've watched the movie 3 times and have read the book and I still look forward to reading it again.



09/02/2008 - 14:42
Kola's picture
LHBA Member
Posts: 914
Joined: 2007-01-23
Into the wild on my list

i just gotta get the book and watch the movie too!

and welcome belange01. I have read some of your posts and think you have LHBA blood in your veins.
Btw, I love Canada (grew up close to Buffalo, 20 miles from the border) and often traveled up north to hunt and fish. I played some hockey up there too. IMO, and in the old days Canadian-style hockey was the best, clean, fast skating, finesse and team players. It has become "americanized" into a goon sport with solo players...kinda of sad. I also got umm..well... ahh....kinda dragged into those "ballet" theatres in Fort Erie too! Them french women were definately oo-laa-laa. The rest has been censored...bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep..bleeeeeeeeeeep.

Kola (jnsert happy face)



09/02/2008 - 15:35
belange01's picture
Posts: 16
Joined: 2008-08-22
I now walk INTO THE WILD; Alex Supertramp

Kola wrote:
i just gotta get the book and watch the movie too!

and welcome belange01. I have read some of your posts and think you have LHBA blood in your veins.

Too funny ! I defnintely want to live the life of little to no debt and have that feeling of waking up each morning that I had a major part in producing a roof over my head. Unfortunately I paid a lot for my land (not overpaid), so it will take some time before that becomes $0 balance.

I'm signed up for the instant email alert for the next class... I am still very confused about which log home construction I want to use. The only issue is the water/log rot issue with my SC style. But if you think about it, anyone using any log style other than FULL-Round B&P would have an issue. Suare logs, log siding, SC, Kits...... But CHECKING is just as major as an issue, and EVERY Style incl. B&P Full-Round (Skip Style) will have the water issue (especially while using Chink) .......... and the old pioneer B&P was squared on the stop and bottom and those buildings are used as proof that they are still standing (without the use of preservatives and stains)........



09/05/2008 - 00:12
shawnis's picture
LHBA Member
Posts: 49
Joined: 2007-08-14
No TV 2.5+ years

When my wife and I moved to the D.C. area, we decided not to bring the T.V. with us. We had already stopped watching the evening news by then and had noticed how much happier we were. We just thought we'd stop watching all our shows for a while and then pick up something in a few weeks.

Well, it's been more than 2 1/2 years without a television and we don't miss it at all! Our friends are amazed. Everyone wonders what we do without the boob tube or the every-popular game consoles. I tell them we read and do other projects. I encourage everyone to give it up but so far no one's taken me up on that offer.

Some things I've noticed....

1) T.V. has a HUGE influence on how and what people think. I especially see it in the in-laws. They're always so upset about whatever's on the news. They repeat what's talked about as if it was their own thoughts. The talking heads and the people behind them are definitely in the driver's seat in regard to what's talked about in this country.
2) You spend more when you watch television The commercials and the shows, which are also commercials, encourage mass consumerism mostly for products you don't even need.
3) You are not uninformed if you stay away from T.V. I would argue that you're better informed.
4) The Internet can be just as bad as television This is especially true of web sites with user-directed content. We have to be careful with this.

All-in-all I think we are much too overstimulated in this life. I can't wait until I build my place to unplug myself from everything. Well almost everything.

--

-- Shawn --
LHBA class of January, 12th-13th 2008



09/05/2008 - 02:17
chadfortman's picture
LHBA Member
Posts: 363
Joined: 2005-04-14
Tv mostly a wast of time

Look, listen and learn
Shawnis i am close to were you live.
I be in Springfield tomarrow and Manassas.
I have my old 80s metal band play at Jacks tomarrow night.
Music and old westerns i love to watch.
Living over seas very little amercain tv so you have to find other interest.
But i am hooked on the internet its so full of information.
News on tv only makes people feel bad.
They dont play anything good on it most the time.
And all these new shows with back stabing each other. Come on with this crap.
We showing it ok to treat the fellow human like crap.
And why are movies like Saw 1 2 3 4 5 out there ore hostile all that does is produce future serial killers.
Is this entertainment what for people sick in the head.
Sick movies. Wolf creak was another sick one but i respected it becuse its based on a true story.
Into the wild Chris had it right people are out to just insult ore hurt each other why? why?
I have very little trust in people in Va except people i know like 16 years.
First impressions are most of the time correct.
If i go out the way to help my friend then when i ask him he will bend over backward to help me.
Not allot people left like that in this world as i see.
More people like Shawnis need say seya to the tv.
Shawnis i watch alittle tv do your friends say to you when you go over there house.
Hey have you seen this show ore this one.
I tell them i got better things to do and watch tv ore play the playstaytion 3 to a call to duty.
i got split wood for winter ore do more land clearing for my cabin.
Peace out

--

Look, listen and learn
A man who works with his hands is a laborer,
A man who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman,
A man who works with his hands, his head and his heart is an artist.
St Francis of Assisi.



09/05/2008 - 01:18
Yuhjn's picture
LHBA Member
Posts: 361
Joined: 2008-04-07
tv

shawnis wrote:
This is especially true of web sites with user-directed content. We have to be careful with this.

My experience is that user-directed content is often much better than the corporate-directed content you get on major internet sites and the TV news.



09/05/2008 - 12:29
LHBA Member
Posts: 26
Joined: 2007-08-09
The user directed sites

The user directed sites generally have an agenda as well, sometimes it is more extreme other times it is naive or ignorant, if you are looking for information to back up your personal point of view and opinion, (I am sure there is as much "evidence" in favor of global warming as there is opposed to it) it is not very hard to find. And of course the sites that agree with me are correct and unbiased ;-)



09/05/2008 - 14:03
Yuhjn's picture
LHBA Member
Posts: 361
Joined: 2008-04-07
information

papackbi wrote:
I am sure there is as much "evidence" in favor of global warming as there is opposed to it

For issues of science I tend to take the most stock in scientific journals. That's where scientists publish their work. Many of them cost quite a bit of money to subscribe to, but generally your academic institution will pay for it when you are yourself doing work in the field. Also most academic institutions have subscriptions that they offer free of charge to students who want to do research.

If you really want to learn the truth about global warming, go to the local college, find the library, and start reading the journals. Dont use the TV or internet, go directly to the scientists doing the research.

The vast majority of the world's scientists have emperical evidence that global warming is not only happening, but is caused by humans. That's what the journals say, and that's what I tend to believe. My experience is that most scientists are concerned with truth and disregard politics. And the scientists have been warning us about this since the 70's.

Not everyone in the world has a political agenda



09/05/2008 - 15:14
LHBA Member
Posts: 123
Joined: 2005-11-16
Empirical Method

Yuhjn,

Don't want to cause any hard feeling, but you might want to take a look at the statistical analysis of all published works around the field as far as generalizing support in the scientific field across all journals. At last calculation, 2007, it is a lot less than 20% of the published papers supported or denied the causal relationships studied. Correlations were treated as they normally are---reason to possibly study a certain phenomena more but not reason to make conclusions (and often as in the case of global warming, they are used as premises for yet other arguments--this is where the real problem is--arguments that use onrpoven premises are not very good arguments).

The vast majority, like most good science papers do niether. To summarize the science in a sinlge sentence: we are in a point in time where the papers can leave most educated readers with the sense that either the "glass is half empty or the glass is half full." To paraphrase one prominent scientist: It may take a century of study and testing to understand what we are seeing today.

Unfortunately, there is not a testable and repeatable causal relationship that we can point to- to weight the argument either way. We have many correlations, but none that merit the rise to cause and effect via testable/repeatable methods.

A good theory must be able to be proven wrong to be valid (the theory must be complete and detailed enough that on its merit alone any scientist can follow the logic to either prove or disprove its assertions). Most theories srufacing in the news and in the layperson's forum put forth from both sides of the aisle on this matter do not meet this simple requirement. When a theory is found to have holes, the usual response is to attack the person poking the holes, rather than retiring and rethinking or abandoning the idea altogether.

I prefer to keep an open mind. Show me the empircal evidence and show that the deductions are the result of an empirical process. The majority of published articles in the past few years regaring global warming that make the news are based upon modeling. Any first year science student knows that models are tools and not ends in themselves (often they are completely counter to the observable part of the world/universe they are intended to mimic). They may point to something, but good hard empirical testing is what we build arguments upon.

I would caution you on what "peer review" really entails.
A good theory should stand on its own. If a writer or orator ever uses the words "peer reviewed" be very suspicious. It is very much like an industry regulating itself...if you don't have a problem with that, that is fine. But, if you do, then you understand the gravity of the situation.

--

When the search for truth is confused with political advocacy, the pursuit of knowledge is reduced to the quest for power. ---Alston Chase



09/05/2008 - 15:22
mlr1968's picture
LHBA Member
Posts: 120
Joined: 2006-03-28
Well said Adubar

Attended Class March 25th/26th of 2006.
Excellent information. I have had this in mind when trying to listen to both sides of this issue, you just put into words what I could not.

--

Attended Class March 25th/26th of 2006.



09/05/2008 - 18:27
Yuhjn's picture
LHBA Member
Posts: 361
Joined: 2008-04-07
theory

adubar wrote:

It is very much like an industry regulating itself...if you don't have a problem with that, that is fine.

Nice, since scientific journals are all peer reviewed, you have just dismissed all of modern science in a single sentence. Wow, impressive. Of course, I have no idea how the computer you used to post that reponse works, since the laws that govern your PC's microprocessor and related hardware were first discovered, tested, examplined, and the published, in scientific peer reviewed journals... but hey, maby God made the computer just like he's making the planet hotter.

Most theories cant be proven nor disproven fully, and that's why they are called theories and not laws. Heck, if we're only talking about theories which can be fully proven or disproven, you've just thrown out all of modern astronomy... Carl Segan would be PISSED! :)

You can believe that Zeus sits around making things happen per his whim, or you can believe peer reviewed emperical evidence. There are obviously huge numbers of people who dismiss science in favor of mysticism. If you want to be one of them, by all means!

I've just realized how stupid I must be to try to argue for science over God on a forum with so many ultra-right-wingers on it. I'm sure if we did a poll most people would be creationists... and you cant use rational thinking in a conversation with someone who uses faith... it's apples and oranges.

Ok, forget I even posted into this thread.... I should have known better. But for what it's worth, I'd rather burn in hell with Darwin and Einstein than go to heaven with Jerry Faldwell and Jim Baker.



09/05/2008 - 18:58
LHBA Member
Posts: 123
Joined: 2005-11-16
You miss the point

Yuhjn,

I think you miss the point greatly.

It is one thing to present a theory to your peers for review (having your work peer reviewed) and another to tell a layman or any other scientist that the very reason they should believe your theory is because it has some sort of "peer review."

Yuhjn, the logic does not stand.

Apeal to Authority is what it is.
Invalid argument form.

It takes a "leap of faith' to draw conclusions from the current science.

Seems to me that religion has just taken another form for some.

--

When the search for truth is confused with political advocacy, the pursuit of knowledge is reduced to the quest for power. ---Alston Chase



09/05/2008 - 19:13
Yuhjn's picture
LHBA Member
Posts: 361
Joined: 2008-04-07
the point

adubar wrote:

It is one thing to present a theory to your peers for review (having your work peer reviewed) and another to tell a layman or any other scientist that the very reason they should believe your theory is because it has some sort of "peer review."

This makes little to no sense.

As I see it, all you're doing is saying "well just because scientists say it's true, doesnt mean it's true". You are using "peer review" as a reason to dismiss scientific research. That's your perogative, but as I said, that's mysticism.

And now the 2nd piece of your argument is "well, modern science is just another form of mysticism" which is not true.

The difference between science and religion, at least one difference, is that science changes as new information is gained. Religion tries to prevent change and knowledge.

Does it take a leap of faith to say 2+2 = 4? Yes I suppose you could argue that it does. And since that's what you want to try to argue, I wont endulge you any more.

It's not uncommon for religious types to give the "nothing can truely be known, it's all faith" as an argument against science. We scientists just laugh about the fact that people make that point using the computers we made for them with our mystical science :)

Tell you what, I'll keep studying quarks and string theory, you keep trying to part the red sea, and we'll see who goes further.



09/05/2008 - 20:09
LHBA Member
Posts: 123
Joined: 2005-11-16
Missed oppportunity

Sorry about the diabtribe I wrote, but
you're putting words into my text I never wrote. I think you missed my intent with your paraphrasing.

Dismiss scientific research? I say quite the contrary. If you read my posts, I've emphasized using the empirical/scientific method. I do not dismiss peer review journals. I only believe that they should have very little merit in the public debate. Appeal to authority muddles any argument.

If I, as a layman wanted to start researching the research, then the journals would have value and meaning to me.
But, if I as a layman, but a logician too don't want to do the research, I am not going to be swayed by the peer review argument.
I will however, be swayed by facts and a well made argument. If you can show me that what is being ascerted can be tested and reproduced at will by others, I will give it weight.

either Proove it, or show me.

We see very little of either side trying to "show us," much of the detail, let alone the corroberated science behind it.

This far, the only common argument I see from either side is:

I believe/disbelieve in anthropogenic global warming because:

1. I see/don’t see correlations
2. What I believe is published in a peer review journal or some other "authority" says it so.

Where are the facts in all this?

To me there are good (valid) theories (ones that don't fall apart the minute someone looks at the underlying support for it) or there are invalid theories.

By the way, many in science have a big problem with the idea of scientific "laws." I am one of them.

To my mind, the idea of "gravity" is still in the theoritcle realm (and thus far we have not disproved it! So, we use it and rightly so). We can test to come to the same conclusion regarding it, but as math is a contstruct, and science for that matter is too, and we use a decimal system I can never be 100% sure. But, I don't think I have to be, but I must be very, very ,very (many decimal points after this) sure! In my world, I will go forth believing in gravity. Not because someone stated it in a peer reviewed journal, but because I've been explained the rational behind the idea and understand the repeatable tests that support it. I have fetted the underlying argument to it and it stands up.

Yujn, I think you may be looking at this as all "black and white." To my mind there is far too much grey in the matter.

I'm not too sure where the religion thing came up, but to me both sides of the issue are acting in a very dogmatic fashion.

Me, I prefer to take a "third way" approach. I cannot argue for or against at the momment. I can only show where the logical holes are.
I do, however, understand what both sides have tried to argue and it just doesn't stand up.

We need MORE science.

Peace

--

When the search for truth is confused with political advocacy, the pursuit of knowledge is reduced to the quest for power. ---Alston Chase



09/05/2008 - 20:56
Yuhjn's picture
LHBA Member
Posts: 361
Joined: 2008-04-07
oppertunity

adubar wrote:
If I, as a layman wanted to start researching the research, then the journals would have value and meaning to me.
But, if I as a layman, but a logician too don't want to do the research, I am not going to be swayed by the peer review argument.
I will however, be swayed by facts and a well made argument. If you can show me that what is being ascerted can be tested and reproduced at will by others, I will give it weight.

The math models used by scientists to understand global warming go far beyond a layman's ability to understand.

So in other words, when a large group of people who are many times more educated about a subject generally all agree, layman who dont understand the subject have no choice but to accept the theory on the basis of "I dont really know enough to know" or they can dismiss the theory on the basis of "I dont want to believe it, so I wont".

To put a finer point on it, I, being somewhat of a layman with regard to the complex mathmatical models used to understand global climate, put much more "faith" in the opinions and beliefs held by the scientists who spend their lives studying the subject rather than the opinions of the politicians paid for by oil lobbiests who have political agendas.

The former group says "global warming is happening and it's caused by humans" and the later group says "global warming is a myth and dont worry about it". Who are you going to believe, the scientists or the politicians? I know who I believe. :)