Hey Rod. I have learned one way to keep from overcharging your battery bank is to have a control unit that switches the juice over to another load when the batteries are charged. One good suggestion I read is to run the load to a heating element in your hot water heater. I was also picturing a small power house close to the stream to house the turbine, batteries, inverter and control module. That would cut down on the loss of power from transmission to the house cause I'd been sending conditioned AC through the lines. I've seen pictures of those permanent magnet alternators mounted to a housing with two, three, or even four jet nozzles that spin a pelton style wheel. That Lil' Otto set up puts out 150 watts an hour on I think they said as little as five gallons a minute with about five feet of head. I guess that'd be OK for a weekend cabin but a guy with a wife sure couldn't live on that little power. I'd just like to see some systems and hear how much success people have had with them. Electrical is one of my weakest areas but the whole thing doesn't sound that complicated. I just really think these set ups can give you alot of juice for a long time with low maintenance if you build it right.

Battery's
http://www.beutilityfree.com/nife.html

You can buy the batteries direct from manufacturer or his distributor in US

http://www.changhongbattery.com/english/cp/view.asp?id=129

Changhong has contact information on website:

North America
Tel:
+1 604 2667 186
Fax:
+1 604 2667 286
Email:
hon-au@shaw.ca

Maybe they sell it cheaper then "be utility free" guys
Hope it will be helpful for somebody else...

Well, it depends on the situation. Like I said, they tend to self discharge a sizable portion of their power, (discharging as much as 10% in the first day, and roughly 5% every 10 days thereafter) making them significantly less efficient than a typical lead-acid battery. But, for certain cases, the nearly indestructible nature of the battery would make it a perfect candidate for places like an unattended cabin where the possibility of complete discharge could occur. (something that would kill a lead-acid battery in short order) The main advantage would be, it would likely be the last battery bank you'd ever have to buy, as they usually last a lifetime. (or longer) About the only thing you have to do is keep the electrolyte topped up and change the electrolyte ever 12~15 years. Being that they accept deep discharging far superiorly than a lead-acid, you can get away with a smaller bank of batteries. Lead-acid shouldn't be discharged below 75~80% capacity, as it will shorten it's life significantly if you do. A nickel-iron battery can be safely pulled down to 50% (and even lower) without harmful effects.

Comparison:
1000 amp/hour lead-acid bank, 75% discharge = 250Ahr or 25 amps for 10 hours.
500 amp/hour nickel-iron bank, 50% discharged = 250Ahr or 25 amps for 10 hours.
Half the capacity, same amount of available power. (technically more)

OK, another factor. Nickel-iron batteries have a lower cell voltage than lead-acid, (1.2v vs. 2.1v per cell) so more batteries will be required in a string to achieve the voltage needed. With their relatively higher price, it can make for a pricey battery bank, but when you consider that a lead-acid bank will get changed out several time in your lifetime, in the end, it's cheaper. (if you can absorb the high upfront cost)

So, if you can live with the upfront cost, (unless you're lucky enough to come across an old set for free) the lower efficiency, and a slightly different maintenance schedule, (more regular watering, but less equalizing charges) they are far superior to lead-acid. It's something each individual has to weigh for themselves.

Congratulations on your find. There's a good chance that the electrolyte hasn't been changed in a long time, and should be your first thing to do, but you can do some testing first and what they're worth. (actually, a before and after test would be interesting)

I didn't know there were NiFe batteries out there in combined cell cases, but so be it. Always something new for me to learn. :-) Ideally, for your 24v arrangement, you'd want 20 cells in a string. I don't know if you can break up individual cells, but if so, you could make up three strings of 20 cells. If you can, it'd look a bit like this:

Note, the 7th eight cell battery is electrically split into two four cell units. Care must be taken to get the positive and negatives in the right order when splitting up the cells, because if you get one (or more) wrong, your overall string voltage will be lower.

Alright, if you gotten this far, you'll need to determine what your Amp-hour capacity is. To do this, you need to charge the battery bank up. They are considered fully charged when cell voltage is 1.4V (28V per string) at rest after 30 minutes from removing from charge. Keep an eye on electrolyte levels when charging, as air is the enemy of NiFe batteries. It's possible they may not come up to full voltage, so you just have to do what you can. Once you got the bank charged as best as you can, you need to do a timed discharge at a known amperage rate. You'll need to know the amperage of your (preferably resistive) test load, (series up two car headlights perhaps) and you'll need to watch the voltage. NiFes are considered discharged at 1.2V per cell, (24V per string) and will drop off rapidly after reaching that value. I prefer a small load, say 5 perhaps 10 amps. It's a much longer test, but the results will be more accurate. Car headlights are about 5 amps. (two in series will still be 5 amps, and two sets paralleled to two in series will give about 10 amps at 24V)

OK, so the test loads are hooked up, and you note beginning time and the amperage being drained from the bank. Also note the voltage and write it down. When you initially connect the load, there will probably be a slight drop in voltage, but it should stabilize. Check back ever 30~60 minutes and record the voltage. If you start to see a voltage drop, check back more often. When you start to see voltage dropping off rapidly, you've reached the discharge limit of the batteries. Note the time. So, now you have a know amperage at a known number of hours, you multiply hours by the amperage and you get the battery bank Amp-hours.

Depending on what you come up with, you'll know how well it will work with your turbine. One thing to note, it's likely the wind turbine won't be putting out a full 1200 watts very often, so it will probably be fine. You must have dump loads on a turbine, so they will absorb the extra power when you are at full power production. Some other things to take into consideration. Most charge controllers are designed for lead acid batteries, so you may have to work through some teething issues to get it working right. More expensive controllers should be more flexible in controlling charge rates and voltages. NiFes do like to be charged slower than Lead acid, so you will need to watch temperatures and electrolyte levels closely while you figure out what works, but the good news is they are much more tolerant to damage than lead acid, so that should ease some worries while you experiment. I believe they vent off a combination of hydrogen and oxygen, so they should be treated in the same fashion as lead acid. (preferably not in the house, or at very least, an airtight container vented outdoors) Nifes also have a wider voltage range than lead acid, so it might drive some inverters nuts on low/high voltage shutdowns.

OK, that's more like it. Eight single cells packed together. That tag is a great example of the lower efficiency of NiFe batteries. It says 120 Ahrs., but also says 24 amps for 7 hours, which is 168 Ahrs. That's 71.4% efficient. 48 Ahrs will disappear without ever getting to be used.
Since the tag doesn't give a bank voltage, there's no way to determine the original wiring configuration, and therefore the amp-hours of the existing cells you now have. In any case, it looks like your turbine will be too big for the bank, but you can use the excess power to heat water or something.

You can do a 12 volt system, and it will double your amp-hours, but it still requires all your cells. (six strings of ten in series) Since you said your wind turbine is 24 volts, you'd have to deal with that. Stepping down the voltage will induce some additional losses. Also, 12 volt in general is going to be less efficient, and requires larger cables. (exponentially as amperage increases) But, it's easier to find affordable 12 volt inverters, appliances, and charging equipment, so it's a balance you'll have to find for yourself.

In either case, 12 or 24 volt arrangement, your wattage input/output is the same. Cut volts in half and you double your amps. If you were to step down your wind turbiine, you'd only increase the amperage coming from it, and the same concern you have of over rate charging still exists. There's no way to determine what your total amp-hours will be without a test, but the battery tag does suggest a good charge rate, (20% of capacity) though, being what they are, they should tolerate a higher rate. (I still think 30% is plenty safe) You just got to do like I mentioned before, and watch your temps and fluid levels if you much higher. You really need to make up those batteries in the configuration you plan to use, and find your amp-hours so you can better plan your charging profile.

You can not mix lead acid batteries with Nife batteries. Also, mixing cells of different Ahr capacities will lead to uneven charging. The bank should consist of all the same size and type cells.

On a side note, I originally planned on a 24V system, but I since decided to bump up to a 48V system. It allows me to get more watts though my charge controller, and keep my wire sizes down to manageable costs. Had I stuck with 24V, I'd been forced to get a second charge controller ($$$) and much larger cabling ($$$) The battery bank size doesn't change for the same wattage, just the battery wiring configuration, so there's no additional cost there. 48V inverters are pricier, but I believe it's worth the efficiency gains.

an addition
if my batterys are 12v for 8 cells this is 1.5V each
if im putting 2 extra cell to the line adding 3V to it for total of 15V per line
will not that drive my inverter crazy as it has hi/low protection
Eric

Well i did not receive my regulator yet
i thot the battery dump regulator was a ON/OFF relay sending or not to batterys

using first bank as primelary and dumping load to other bank wen first was full

ill be setting 10 cell per line and see what i get

ill have to rethink this with your 90 amp battery isolator and also like the idea of multiple battery dump regulator
ill be setting 10 cell per line and see what i get
what do you think of fork lift battery bank (other than high price LOL)

Rod, dont know you but im keeping you as friend you are strong in knowledge
this email was receive today from alkaline.co.za ,
witch i dont know were in the world there from as i email manufacturer but they replied

Eric

=====================================
Hello again,

* These batteries are normally used in railway (vibration) environment.
* They are pocket plate high performance cells
* The blocks are at least 30 years old
* Typically the battery will give in the region of 70% of original capacity (84AH)
* Apply this regime

Old battery that has been previously filled
1. The battery should be free of internal rusting (check if you are able)
2. filled with E22 electrolyte special mix with KOH and LiOH
3. Initial charged at 24A for 16 hours constant current
4. Discharge at 24A for 5 hrs
5. Recharge at 24A for 7hrs

* The cells then shall be at the best capacity that they are able to give

Tony Gordon
Project manager
Multi Power Systems
A division of Alstom Electrical SA (Pty) Ltd
Tel:- (+2711) 397-4861
Fax:-(+2711) 397-6094
(+27)(0) 82 373 6166

--
(¯´·.¸ Eric Rivard ¸.·´¯)
(¯´·.¸ Visit / Visitez ¸.·´¯)
http://www.preservation.ca

They installed some of this battery's in a ford f750 and seems it could run 160KM on a 10 minute charge

from a reply i got from them " To answer your question, at this time Altairnano only makes those batteries described in the following two attachments." "NanoSafe batteries is slightly above $2.00 USD per wh and the company is working effectively to reduce the cost per wh."
http://www.altairnano.com/documents/NanoSafeBackgrounder060920.pdf
http://www.altairnano.com/documents/NanoSafe_Datasheet.pdf

http://www.altairnano.com/markets_energy_systems.html
Innovative technology
Large configuration choices
No operational safety issues
Three times the power of existing batteries
A one-minute recharge
High cycle life—10,000 to 15,000 charges vs. 750 for existing batteries
The capability to operate in extreme temperatures:
-22° to 480° Fahrenheit

Eric

90% of the time, higher is always better, especially in whole house applications. Despite inverters costing a bit more, the main reason for a high voltage system is lower cost wiring and equipment, and higher efficiency as wattage increases.

I'll give an example. I currently have twelve 175 watt panels. My charge controller is rated 60 amps. If I make it a 24 volt system, that's 2100 watts, divided by 24 volts, equals 87.5 amps. Too much for the controller, so I'd have to shell out another $500 for a second one. Also, I'd need to run 1/0 copper cable to run up to 70 feet!!!!

Now for 48 volt. Same equation equals 43.75 amps. Within one controller's limit. And I only need to run #6 to go the same distance.

So with the price of today's copper, you can see the added cost of an inverter can be quickly offset by the reduction of installation materials.

In case anyone is wondering, my controller (Outback MX-60) is very flexible for input/output voltages, so I can make decision changes like this, and not get penalized by having to buy new equipment.

Is it enough? Well, it still depends on several factors.

1. Type and amp-hours of the battery?
Good chance it's lead acid, and whatever the capacity, remember that you can only utilize 20~25% of that capacity. I think most them batteries run around 70~100 amp-hours

2. Type and rate of your charging source?
At the beginning of this thread, you said a hydro system. Have you determined the potential energy available? Timed the volume of the flow?

3. What will your average household Kwh usage be?
This is a biggy. You need to know your household usage. Depending on lifestyle, everything hinges on this. Myself, I'm comfortable to be flexible with my usage, and use only what's available, rather than trying to produce enough to meet my needs. (did that make sense?)

I doubt that battery (actually, it will be batteries) will be big enough for a whole home, unless your extremely frugal with your energy needs. I'm thinking something in the 1000 amp-hour range for a 24v system would be more realistic for whole home usage. (keep in mind a 48v system would be only half that, but because it takes twice as many batteries to make up a string, the number of batteries in the bank will be the same)

Final note on buying used batteries on Ebay or elsewhere. If the amp-hours are not listed, there's a very high chance the person selling them knows absolutely nothing about batteries. With the exemption of the bank voltage, it's the most important piece of information about the batteries. Anyone who knows batteries would know to list this info. So if someone is trying to tell you that they are reconditioned and in great shape, but doesn't know the capacity, then how can you take their word they know anything about the batteries state in the first place?

Yea, I think those Delco auto alternators being converted to PMA's is probably nearly ideal for Turgo or Pelton style hydro applications, since they are still going to need to turn a fairly high RPM, which they are capable of. Probably not so good for a spillway type hydro generator. Here's a good calculator for figuring potential power for a Pelton/Turgo style application for given water flow: http://nooutage.com/hydroele.htm#How%20much%20power

For spillway applications, you'd be better off building a slower turning axial flux alternator, like the one I've shown in the wind generation thread.

Although the grid tied systems are pricey, they sure do make life a whole lot easier. Automatic power routing and no batteries to maintain. Sweet. I find it hard not to recommend going that route, but it can make the homeowner "lazy" in the conservation aspect of being environmentally friendly, since you still have unlimited power always available. Just be sure your power supplier allows grid-ties.

OK, the battery question. I assume you mean an average of 3.1 Kw continuously over the course of a year. Really, a peak value and time of the year that occurs would make sizing much more accurate. So, I'll just figure 3.1 Kw each hour. (he he, I don't use that much in an entire day!) So a continuous drain of 3.1 KW over a 24 hr. period is 74.4 Kwh. At 24v, that's 3,100 Ahr. Given a lead-acid battery bank shouldn't be drained more than 25% of it's capacity, it means you'd require a bank of at least 12,400 Ahr!!!! Yes, that is a lot of battery, but it gets worse. The charging size will have to be massive. A 24/7 hydro system has to be about 4.2 Kw to provide sufficient charge just to keep up with demand, (including efficiency losses) But you can downsize the battery bank considerably with a hydro system, only required for power surges. Solar is even tougher, since you are limited to charging hours. How long can you run if you have a few stormy days? The battery bank will need to be increased for such days. Let's say you want to have sufficient battery charge for three days without charging. That's 9,300 Ahr, requiring a battery bank of 37,200 Ahr!!! YIKES!!! Solar panels required for simply keeping up with power usage alone would be on the range of 22.4 Kw, based on 4.5 hours of adequate sunlight per day, but for recharging for cloudy days would require more, like on the order of 33.5 Kw. At 24v, your talking about (you ready for this?) an amperage of 1,395 from the solar panels!!!! I'd hate to have to pay for the wiring for that!!! As you can see, 24 volts for such a high demand system is not reasonable. Even at 48 volts, that's a huge amperage demand. Really, solar isn't practical for commercial use unless your willing to dump a huge expense into it.

Oh, we run at $0.08 Kwh here in PP&L territory of SE Pennsylvania.

Not shore of sorce