Thu, 2008-01-03 09:01 — rlrasi
I am wondering if there is anybody out there that can offer information about geothermal heating. It definately intrigues me. My husband and I are in the early stages of acquiring information about this. Thanks, Lisa Rasi Alberta, Canada
Comments
geo-thermo
Take a look at www.waterfurnace.com Claims you can save alot of money on heating and cooling. Just saw an ad so i know nothing about this Co.
is it getting hot in here? :)
Thu, 2008-10-16 10:36
Low-tech approach to the same end...
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Homes/1985-01-01/Passive-Annual-Heat-Storage.aspx
If excavating ability is yours it is a failsafe way to guarantee yourself warm for a lifetime
Log homes are big on thermal mass and this only extends that idea.
Do a search for Passive Annual Heat Storage (PAHS) and you'll find a wealth of info
Geothermal Heating
Tue, 2008-10-14 15:18
My husband & I are confused by what we hear from the plumbers and what we hear from the log people. We're building a cypress log home because of its' density and energy efficiency...until the plumbers said the "R" value was so low and the "infiltration" factor so high! We live in Southwest Iowa so winters are cold. What do you think the truth of the matter is?
R value vs thermal mass
PMNsen,
Welcome to the forum. The advantage of a log structure is not its R insulation value but its thermal mass, or its resistance to temperature changes. Once it's warm it tends to stay warm longer than a frame (stick built) wall. The same thing when it's cold.
What does your plumber mean by "infiltration"? I assume he means air infiltration (leaks) through the gaps between the logs. This can be a problem if the house is not chinked properly or not scribed and fitted properly, in the case of a chinkless construction method. All this said, a log home is like any other home in that if it is built poorly you will have lots of problems. If it is built well then you'll have very few problems. I've been in log homes that were not drafty even on a very windy day and were kept warm by a single wood stove. I've also been in one that couldn't be kept warm if you'd had a bonfire in the middle of the room (it was poorly designed and built).
Sounds like your plumber may have been exposed only to the poorly designed/built type of log home, and there are plenty of them being sold on the market today. Remember, just because it is made from large round or square pieces of wood, doesn't mean it is a quality log home.
Hope this helps.
JD
Well both views have merit.
Well both views have merit. First off, stop thinking "R" value. That's a term coined for trying to reduce thermal transference though poor construction methods. What a log home has is "thermal mass" That is, you have material that doesn't block the transfer of heat. Rather, you have a material which slowly absorbs and releases thermal energy. This is one of the problems with kit homes, in that they use such small cross-sectional "logs" that they don't have sufficient thermal mass. Some manufactures make double envelope kits to try and add a layer of insulating air. (heaven forbid they should just use large logs) If you have chunky logs, (say a minimum thickness of 8") you won't have to concern yourself with the dreaded R.
As far as infiltration, I don't know what to tell you other than it's only as bad as your construction technique. Heck, stick framed homes are built so tight now-a-days, that builders are putting fresh air exchangers in the HVAC systems. I personally think a tightly sealed home is a BAD thing. Granted, a tight home is energy efficient, but there are other important factors, like the inhabitant's health. (something the US DOE doesn't take into consideration)
My guideline: If I feel a breeze in my house on a windy day, it's too much infiltration, if not, I'm good. ;-)
Geothermal/woodstoves
Mon, 2008-03-17 07:05
This thread got a little twisted eh?!!! Awww well, just wanted to add my experience with the search for geothermal and the complete satisfaction with a catalytic cumbustor wood stove.
Have pretty much decided not to do a geothermal system (well type) too expensive! When I decide on the foundation style maybe I will leave some of the abundant ledge in the basement and see how that helps!
Wood, even with an expensive clean burning stove, is much better in my opinion. My off-grid home had (shudders at the memory) a barrel stove with a crack in the top, single wall pipe six inches from the bathroom wall, YIKES! There was no central heating system in this house when we bought it (it was six years old at the time). Being native Vermonters we went to the nearest Vermont Castings stove shop to figure out what to replace our nitemare stove with!
Happy to say that we bought a Consolidated Dutchwest stove with the glass in front, it can put out about 50,000 btu's and was totally efficient to heat the four bedroom home. There is a gas/gas heating stove for backup, but we only used it when we were away or wanted to be lazy! That stove is now twenty years old, the combuster has a place at the top of the stove with a lever to open and close it. What I think I remember is that ANY stove can be fitted with one int the flue pipe rising up from the stove. We installed double-wall pipe and put up fire board with an air spacer next to the bathroom wall. Those two things solved the scarey closeness of the stove pipe to the wall.
The Consolidated Dtchwest/Vermont Castings stove has been absolutely wonderful! There was a small learning curve, and if I install another one it will have an optional outside air source to enhance the ventilation for a good burn. The stove will definitely burn for over 12 hours on a load (3 logs)18" length of log and we burned EVERYTHING in it! Pine, green, oak, cherry, birch etc. It was nothing to clean the chimney, maintenance... we replaced the seal gaskets a couple of times, and a new combuster every 3 years or so. WELL WORTH THE INITIAL INVESTMENT. Never burned more than a cord and a half of wood in a cold Vermont winter. And got to burn all clean scrap wood too!
There was a problem with insurance at one point, not having a "central" heating system. But we stuck it out and finally got some coverage. And... the pipes have never frozen... ever. Wonder if the ledge in the basement has had a geothermal effect on the house. Even with no heat on in the winter it has never gone below 45 degrees.... yup, I'm thinkin' that the ledge in half the basement has something to do with that, and the guy probably never had a clue that it could be an advantage!
Ledge in basement?
Fyremare...
I've never heard of this "basement ledge" you mention in your post. Can you (or anyone else) elaborate on this.
Ledge in basement...
Mon, 2008-03-17 12:54
Hey Timberwolf!
The man who built the home we bought in VT in 1988.... in an area that had no building codes, and basically still doesn't, he picked a spot to build the house and ran in to a pile of ledge. Sooooo he just incorporated it into the foundation and left it exposed in the basement! BUT, truly, even with no heat in the dead of winter the house has never gone below 45 degrees. Now some of you may never be able to integrate geothermal heat like that because of building codes, but in VT ledge is everywhere and hard to get around. I may run into the same thing when I try to build unless I do a slab or crawl space. Understand this basement has a ladder to get to it and contains the hotwater tank, a coldwater bladder tank (29 gals) so the electricity only draws once in a while to refill, not everytime the water is turned on. The power system is solar/electric.
That's a really cool idea.
Does anyone have any data/done research on this concept. A giant piece of bedrock acting as a flywheel taping the earth's natural temperature to moderate the house. Does the reverse work in the summer? Does the house stay cool?
What is a "Pile of Ledge"?
...Maybe it's an East Coast term us West Coast people are clueless about. I, for one, have no idea what a "pile of ledge" is...Please enlighten!
Louanne
ledge
I've lived in the east all my life and have never heard of a "pile of ledge". What I assume you are speaking of is a rock ledge (or shelf of rock) and rather than jackhammering it out the builder build around it or on top of it.
If you look at http://www.paulandellen.com/loghome/pix1995a.htm you'll see on page 2, 6 pics down where Ellen is on the shelf of rock that they didn't remove and built around. Is this similar to what you are referring too?
"pile" of ledge
Tue, 2008-03-18 04:12
Yeah, that'd be it! A whole big "Pile o' ledge"! Lots, mucho...except ours isn't loose, it's solid! And yup, the builder decided to work around it instead of blasting it out. By the time he found it (they were digging by hand) I'm sure it was the best way to go! Thanks for the pics, it encourages me that I can find a way to build on the stuff!
I guess I can't put a picture in here, it won't let me copy it into the message...
Over where I'm at, we get
Over where I'm at, we get ledges too. (though typically shale) but the busters are the sometimes house sized boulders from the last ice age glaciers that we got to deal with here. I've been in one old farmhouse where the original builders just incorporated the boulder right into the basement.
Thanks Rod
I called the guy and asked if it had the handle on the right side, He said it did. When I go tomorrow I will look inside. It seems that it should be fairly simple to tell if there is the catalytic combustion chamber in the unit or just a basic fire box. Even if its old the price is hard to turn down. Thanks, Kent.
Heck yea then, it's a good
Heck yea then, it's a good deal. Even if the catalyst is caput, (which will cost around what you're paying for the stove) it's still a bargain. Hopefully, it's a King model (bigger, longer burn time)
Might be hard to see the catalyst, but there's got to be a way to see it. (since it requires occasional cleaning/replacement)
Rod, did you ever get your
Rod, did you ever get your Blazeking? Just curious because I might be interested as well.
No, I'm still holding off on
No, I'm still holding off on storage (or the lack there of) concerns, and the fact I just chunked $1600 into my car. (just for PM work!)
Kent, how'd you make out with that Craigslist find?
water heating for your wood stove
I search the web because I want to heat my place with a wood stove and was looking at a way that you would not see the coil or pipe to heat your water and also a safe way that would not take to much electricity or not at all, these are the 2 best sites:
http://www.michigan-horse.org/preheater/
http://www.woodheat.org/dhw/dhw.htm
Peace
Alex
DHW...
Alex,
I share your interest in hot water for the home, in some efficent manner. In Ontario, you cannot (by code) heat domestic hot water in anything but a boiler (if you want to use wood). Everything I've read makes me think most options using a wood stove are either inefficent, ugly, dangerous (and therefore uninsurable) or a comination of them all. I found an old Mother Earth news article on something called "The Dual Magamex wood-burning water heater" looked like it might fill the bill.
Does anyone in on the forums have any experience with wood heated DHW?
Jason.
no codes
Timberwolf, Where I want to build, there is no code, well they let you do pretty much what you want. Ever heard of La Tuque in Quebec? It's a hunting/fishing paradise and pretty much nothing around except threes and lakes and rivers, my kind of place, and land is dirt cheap.
See you at the class
Alex
P.S. As for your generator here is what I'm trying to get my hand on, a Lister type engine with a 10 000 watt gen to it.
Can anyone help me Identify if it has a Catalytic converter
I am going to look at a blaze king wood stove tomorrow. The owner does'nt know anything about it. How can I tell if it is the catalytic combustion style? any help would be greatly appreciated. It is only $150.00 and looks good. Here is the C/L post. Thanks, Kent.
http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/for/578889286.html
Not sure
http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/for/578889286.html
That appears to be either an older King or Princess Classic model, but I don't see the bypass lever on the right hand side. (which controls a damper that either directs flue gasses through the catalyst or around it) Look for a handle like that, and look high inside the burn chamber for that damper. The catalyst looks a little like a honeycomb block. It's possible the older ones may not have been catalyst models.
pellets
Rod wrote:
"That's why I wouldn't even buy a pellet stove, because you're still putting yourself at the mercy of the pellet supplier."
Rod,
That is exactly my way of thinking. I want to be self-sufficient, or have the option to be self sufficient if I need to.
Although for my water I may hook up to the town's water supply at our future homesite. I figure if it comes down to it, I could walk a mile to the river for water if I had to, or set up a collection system.
Even in the suburban house we live in now, we have a fireplace and are near the woods. Even though at this point we use our fireplace only maybe twice a year, it makes me feel better that it is there if I need it.
2 cents
A question I can easily
A question I can easily answer, since I've taken classes on them and installed them. They are a thing of misunderstanding, and salesman take advantage of that ignorance. (not to be taken as an insult)
First, be aware it's not exactly what it sounds to be. Geothermal heatpumps and regular heatpumps are the same thing with a minor difference of how heat is transferred. Keeping the explanation simple, the way they (both) work is to compress refrigerant, and when compressed, it causes the refrigerant to become hot. This hot refrigerant is run through a heat exchanger (similar to a car's radiator) and air is drawn through it to remove heat from the exchanger, to the air that is circulated into the home. Once the refrigerant has done it's job, it needs to be decompressed to repeat the cycle. This is done through a restriction called an orfice, but more importantly, when it's decompressed, it gets very cold. Too cold to make it hot enough when it gets recompressed. So it goes through another heat exchanger. This is where the difference between the two occurs.
On a regular heatpump, the outdoor unit is the "refrigerant warming" heat exchanger, and relys on the ambient air temperature to warm the refrigerant. On a geothermal heatpump, the refrigerant is run through a liquid-to-refrigerant heat exchanger, with ground water pumped through either a set of wells (one supply and one return) or through a closed loop of tubes buried in the yard.
OK, so the advantage. Well, on the regular heat pump, say it's 25 F outside. The colder refrigerant (maybe 0 F, I'm not sure) only has a difference of 25 F to warm the refrigerant with. On a geothermal, the heat exchange happens with water in the ground, which may be 50 F. That right there just doubled the efficiency. Additionally, regular heatpumps suffer another problem. When outdoor temperatures are close to dew point, the outdoor units will "ice up" just like a refrigerator freezer. The only option is to reverse into air conditioning mode (sending hot refrigerant to the outdoor to thaw it out) and engaging electric heat to prevent cooling the house. This condition usually only occurs between 40 F (when it's not warm enough to overcome exchanger freezing) and 25 F (when the air can no longer hold enough moisture to support freezing) Geothermal heatpumps don't suffer this problem since the temperature of the source-water varies little.
For cooling operations, the same advantages of geothermal exist. With regular heatpumps, you send hot refrigerant outside to cool in perhaps 100 F weather, but geothermal, it's still that 50 F ground temperature, again, doubling efficiency.
Just keep in mind, they are still both just compressor and refrigerant based air conditioning units, and still require just as much power as such. Don't let any salesman try to mislead you into thinking they are some geothermally heated water heating system that simply pumps the earth's water through an exchanger, and you get heat. You'll have to move out to Yellowstone or something of the like for that.
Great info Rod
Rod,
Do you know the cost differences and the cost savings advantages for geo vs normal?
And what is your opinion for a second home that might see big swings in temp with no one there?
Pat
Just re-read Uper's original
Just re-read Uper's original question, and I failed to answer his question of installation cost difference between regular and geothermal heatpumps.
The cost of geothermal is significantly higher, because you need to make provisions to acquire the ground water for operation. This means either drilling two wells or trenching in ground loops into the ground. (which takes up a rather large portion of a lawn for a typical home) Either of which is a costly factor.
Barring the temperature
Barring the temperature differential advantages, the main cost difference will be directly affected by the time the electric heat will have to be on for a regular system. If you live in an area like mine, where the Winter temps are always in that "freeze zone", despite electric being fairly cheap, it tends to cause a lot of Kwh's to be used. Further South, where you can be assured to stay above 40 on a regular basis, and they will be similarly financially efficient. In the Summer, you'll see a more efficient geothermal system as temperature rise. For cooling, the further North you go, the less those benefits of a geothermal will pay off, but for heating, it's much better with the geothermal. Where air temps are nearly the same as ground temps, you'll see no advantage. So it's difficult to nail down a cost saving without a full personal study for one's home.
Second question, swings in temperature. Both systems have electric heat installed in them, and also have a unique two-stage thermostats. First stage is the refrigerant heating, and the second stage is set to engage when temperature setting exceeds 2 degrees from room temperature. This is done in case the refrigerant heating can't keep up with the home's losses. So you can see, you wouldn't want to trigger large swings without significant Kwh's from being used. A very even temperature is the most affordable method of operation. "Setback" or programmable thermostats would be a definite no-no. (doubt you'd be able to find a two-stage programmable)
The number one thing I don't like about any heatpump system is, they just feel drafty. The air from the vents is cool to the touch, well below 100 F, unlike other heating systems which are much higher temperatures. This means a heatpump system will need to run much longer in order to get the same amount of temperature rise in the home. It may be cheaper, (in warmer climates anyhow) but it's going to run an awful lot.
Thanks for the info.
With the cold temperatures that can be reached here in Northern Alberta, it sounds like geothermal heating would not be an efficient way to go. I love to be warm and I think that this system would just frustrate me...lol Thanks for saving me some grief. Do you have any other suggestions on alternative heat sources? Besides a fireplace of course.
Lisa Rasi
Alberta, Canada
Heating in Alberta
Lisa,
I understand your concern for heating in the climate you live in. You are looking at alternatives like geothermal, and such. I am curious, Have you ruled out wood heat? Would it not work for you?
I ask because I too looked at alternatives years ago, and reached the conclusion that wood heat was the only way to go for this climate, and my situation (in the country).
I have used it as my only source of heat since 2001, It works so well I had the gas shut off and the meter pulled. It heats my entire house, I have never used more than 4 cords in a year, The house is always warm, and when used in the winter it also supplies all my hot water needs.
Radiant wood heat does not require any mechanical delivery systems (like pumps, or blower motors), though a slow moving cieling fan does help keep the heat evenly distributed on the floor its used on. I am using a Blazeking fireplace. I have the Princess model, But I recommend the King model as you can load more into it.
I can fill it up at 7am, go to work, Mabey not make it home untill 7,8,9pm at night. The fire will still be going, I just toss on a couple more logs, and am good untill morning. I light it up around halloween, and the fire does not go out untill spring. I never have to relight it.
This type of fireplace burns the entire load of wood at the same rate, The heat output stays even all day long. It does this by controling the amount of combustion air that enters the firebox with a bimetal air control that can be set to burn the load at whatever temperature you wish.
You do not have to split wood, just toss in the bigest logs you can get through the door, For my model that is 18-19 inches in length by 8 or 9 inches in diameter. This model also has a catalitic converter in it so there is very little, to no smoke coming out the chimney.
It also has a bypass door that you can flip up, then when you open the front door for loading there is no chance of smoke spilage into the room.
It requires no power, It is brutally simple, Has cost me nothing in maintenance ( mabey one door gasket), Has never failed, If/when it does I will be able to fix/repair it myself.
It is - 20 right now, mabey - 25 by morning. This entire house will be toasty warm all night long with this fireplace.
It works well for me, YMMV.
John
Heating in Alberta
Have not tested but I do like the looks of this stove/oven.
http://www.nlightstove.com/heartland/cookstove.htm have no idea of its effience etc as yours is working well==just thought i would post this nice looking combo- claims it can heat up to 1800 sq ft.
http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/
wood heat and CO2
So, yes, these wood stoves do burn efficiently, but that does not effect the amount of CO2 given off. If that is at all the concern that should be noted. I am still interested in the wood heat because it is much cheaper than geothermal, but they do not compare when talking about CO2 emissions. Now geothermal does use a pump which uses electricity, but, again, the amount of emissions really don't compare. I guess all priorities, etc. need to be looked at.
Debby
John, Yea, that's what I
John,
Yea, that's what I believe I'm seeing. I couldn't find anything on Flame King's website stating that the catalytic converter or the bypass door were optional components on the King model. I guess I'll have to make a call and really get this locked down.
(seriously, I don't where I'm gonna store this thing! LOL Most my larger stuff has been stored at work. But now we are moving, so that option is going away shortly)
Debby,
If carbon emissions are your concern, then I can understand why you'd not want to burn wood. When you load 50 lbs of wood, and remove a couple pounds of ash, it's pretty easy to figure out where the carbon went. But, energy to heat has to come from somewhere, even for the heatpump. To increase the temperature in your home by "X" degrees, either by electric or combustion, requires the same amount of energy. For example, say I'm burning coal in my stove, (I wouldn't use coal for reasons you'll see below, but for argument's sake....) and over "X" time, my house got 5 degrees warmer. Now say we run a heatpump "X" amount of time to increase the same 5 degrees, of which the electricity to operate it comes from a coal burning powerplant. Technically, it should have required the same amount of coal to perform the same job. Of course there are some efficiency +'s and -'s that will effect results one way or the other. The stove should get it done with less fuel.
[begin: boring context] I say this because, even though I'm sure the powerplant can initially extract better than the 82% efficiency that the woodstove can, they do have many conversion and transmission losses until the final product is delivered. Realize that it has to go from burning coal, to transferring heat to water for steam, changed again from steam to mechanical motion of the turbine, changed again to electrical energy, then you have transmission losses in the natural resistance of the wire, and also several transformer voltage step-ups and downs also taking some of the energy before arriving at your home. Once there, the electrical energy is once again converter to mechanical energy, and immediately again to heat energy (refrigerant) and one last time as air heat energy. That's at least 8 changes, not counting the transmission losses themselves, and each time, that takes a bite out of the energy the coal originally started with. With a wood stove, it's right from wood to hot air. [end: boring context]
Of course, if your home is supplied by nuclear or non-carbon renewable energy electric, that's all a mute point.
My position on carbon emissions: I don't see it as a problem, rather, as a benefit. (I'll avoid going into detail since I already included enough boring context for one post) The earth is greener than it's ever been, and it's only going to keep increasing. I'm sure you've probably found plenty of posts of me discussing my renewable energy goals. I can assure you this has nothing to do with a "save the world" mentality or carbon emissions. (though I do have a basic [common sense?] belief in being conservative and not wasteful) I'm just positioning myself where I don't have to be under the thumb of a controlling entity. I have a big enough problem with that right now, with gasoline. That's why I wouldn't even buy a pellet stove, because you're still putting yourself at the mercy of the pellet supplier. The more I can separate myself from dependence, the less stressful my life becomes. Not the best position for a healthy economy, but don't worry, the greater majority of people don't think like me. Anyhow, it's just my anxiety issues showing through. :-)
Now, what I'm expecting to see, is for the EPA of my "free" country to eventually outlaw the burning of wood. Don't think it will happen?
COP
Rod,
your post concerning coal power plants losing efficiency is misleading. You'll find that the Coefficient of Performance of most of these units is >>5 (USUALLY ~10). This means that 10x the energy that heats the house is "pumped" from the outside heat source (sink) than is used to pump it. I severely doubt you are losing 90% of the coal burning efficiency in all those transitions.
This being said, I will be using wood heat. That is because wood is CO2 neutral. The CO2 you release is just what the tree stored during its life. Trees are always storing carbon, and releasing what has been stored in recent memory (even if you ARE a global warming brownshirt) is not the issue. The problem is that we are using carbon that has been trapped for Eons, and releasing that into the atmosphere, not that we are burning logs.
Anyway, the CoP is dependent on the temperature difference between your load and sink. for moderate temps, say ~30 degrees F, an air siink unit is OK, but if you have an air sink, and you get much colder, you need a propane assist (like my aunt). If you have a "geothermal" heat pump your sink remains at a constant 50 degrees, making for very high CoP's, and making them very efficient.
However, if you think 3k is alot for a heating appliance, do I have a quote for you! I looked at heat pumps and in the seattle area, an air sink unit was 10K, and a ground sink unit was a whopping 27K I just fixed my forced air unit! (that was free for 2 hours of tinkering).
Also, I plan to be at my cabin seldom for the winter in the next few years anyway, so I will not be investing in a heating appliance at all for the next year, and using a propane radiant floor after that, with a woodstove assist. I'm very interested in the hot water heat that was talked about earlier, as I could use my wood heat to heat the floor too! (until I get the "solar shed" up and running!)
-Peter
burning wood
"Now, what I'm expecting to see, is for the EPA of my "free" country to eventually outlaw the burning of wood. Don't think it will happen?"
It's already starting in many areas. http://www.wtic.com/pages/1239972.php? My escavation contractor was slapped with a cease and decist order (mid winter) last year, outside boiler was used to heat shop and home. He had two choices. 1 go through some sort of epa licencing/testing$$$$$$$$$ 2 since his boiler was also rated for indoor use he moved inside his workshop/ steel building. Now the boiler is inside heated shop, he claims a slight increase in efficientcy.
I know there are some lagitamate concerns with co2 emmitions. My problem is the close ties between the regulating agencies and commercial energy providers. There are undoubtedly some interests being protected.
Stu
http://www.wtic.com/pages/1239972.php?
CO2
Just a few comments...
I believe the CO2 stuff is about the same amount of mass hysteria as the stupid Y2K stuff.
First, we want the greenhouse gas effect!
Second, Water vapor makes up 95% of green house gases...
Third, Man made CO2 is about .117% of the total greenhouse gases.
As usual I have a reference...
Fourth, CO2 is potential plant growth, just like water behind a dam is potential energy. Its not effluent!
Many experiments have shown that the higher the concentration of CO2 the more plant growth...
The above is meant as information, not an attempt to start an argument...
LIDAR
I had a professor in college (Dr. William (Bill) Eichinger) (THERMODYNAMICS/Fluids) who is a world expert in LIDAR (like radar, only with Lasers). He has developed units for NASA and Other agencies. Lidar is used to study the atmosphere, e.g. particulates due to auto emissions. He told us back in 2k that the whole "CO2 causes greenhouse effect" was largely hooey. I dont' remember the 95% number, but indeed, most greenhouse issues are due to water vapor, not CO2 or even methane (which is worse than CO2 per pound).
I found your graph interesting.
-Peter
hooey...
alright, I did not mean to start another forum argument. I just meant to validate another member's info. You could say that CO2 causes a small temp increase that causes evaporation from the oceans that in turn causes a much greater temperature increase. I in fact brought up this possibility. I have not seen the models, but perhaps this is what is causing the worldwide temp increase that we seem to be seeing. Anyway, Peace to all readers of this page, whether or not they subscribe to the global warming theory.
-Peter
various heating sources
Wed, 2009-08-05 10:07
In my 54 years of knocking around on this earth, I have discovered something I don't understand. How can one type of heat feel warmer than others? I have lived in houses the heat with coal, wood, a combination of the two, gas, electric floor board radiators, oil, and heat pump. I have noticed the for 70 degree room temperature some heat feels warmer. In my opinion an oil furnace provides the warmest heat. It is definitely low labor. Wood and coal in a good system is almost as warm, but a lot more labor intensive. Someone has to fire the furnace. Gas heat wasn't as warm and a whole lot more expensive. My current heat pump just feels cold for the temperature setting and my apartment with electric base board heat was the pits. Well those are my observations. Has anybody else noticed these phenomena?
Geothermal would operate in two ways. Either of a hot source such as hot springs or a cold sink either water or rock. I can't really say a lot about their efficiencies, but the principle is the same as a heat pump. What I know about my air transfer heat pump would make me Leary of using geothermal. The best advice is spend some time in a home equipped with it and see how the heat feels to you.
Is there something hooey with the forums...?
Some of these threads don't seem to be well... threaded very well.
subject, content or off-topic turns?
I won't go where this thread made a turn (I think I learned my lesson when one of our own decided to stop posting due to some things I and several others posted—simply our opinion and sometimes those type of things are best left untyped), but I will say Geo Thermal sounds cool, weather it’s using heat pumps and the thermal properties of the ground or actually using thermal heat from things like geysers!
I think many of us would do well looking at hybrid heating for our homes. We may find that the economic road ahead would be well met by having redundant sources for our basic needs, including heat, for which we might have some form of control.
-Andrew
I like the boiler units
Look, listen and learn
Im Your Huckleberry!
Keep Rocking With Dokken!
I like the units you use outside it heats your water also it a great idea but expensive for around 6K.
Check out heatmore.com if you want see then units. They go for more ore less and can heat very well.
One the things i like about it you can burn allot different things in the units corn, pelets, wood, and used oil.
Seya
CO2...
Just a pic...
Thanks
Thanks, Rod. Good post. We'll have to make a decision soon
Debby
Wow John. The Blaze King
Wow John. The Blaze King sounds like exactly what I've been looking for. Thermostatically controlled. Can be set to run on low for what appears to be up to 2 days. Has a catalytic converter, so you get very efficient burns and hopefully lower creosote despite the slow burn. Low flue temps. Fresh air kit so you don't have to suck air from your house. Quite a nice stove.
The only thing that worries me is, nobody is willing to quote a price online. :-\
Quote for Blaze King
I talked to a dealer located in Grande Prairie, AB today about the Blaze King. The initial price of it is $2995.00 plus $300.00 for the fan kit. Hope this helps! Thanks for the information on the Blaze King John!
Lisa Rasi
Alberta, Canada
Blaze king quote
I called a guy in Tennessee about the Ultra model of the King series and it was around $2700 PLUS what the doors cost! Oh yeah...the "cheap" doors cost 300 bucks Evidently you can get three different styles of doors so they aren't in the initial quote. He never even mentioned blowers. I hate companies that do crap like that. I haven't checked but can't you get a wood burner with a water jacket for that amount?
So you wanted doors on your new car thats extra
Do you know the difference between a used car salesman and stove salesman? The used car saleman knows he's lying.
BlazeKing
I had no idea there would be so many comments regarding wood heating with this type of heater.
I was fortunate to have purchased my unit in May of 2001 I could not afford the king model I wanted at the time as it was over 2grand, So I bought the Princess model ( PE1006G) with the catalytic converter, fresh air thermistat, and fancy gold plated glass door.
I paid 1900 ( 1400 US at that time) for it at the time. The same stove is now roughly 3000.00 Canadian with the same fancy glass/ gold door.
I bought it from Fireplace Stove World in Edmonton, From Ruth. I can highly recommend this company, She knows her stuff, No BS
I have learnt a good bit now that I depend on it exclusively.
First I would not spend money on the fan kits, Yes they work but are over priced, noisy, and the money is better spend on a good quallity celing fan.
2nd I would not buy the fancy gold/glass door. The solid steel door option works fine, And because this fireplace works so well you will usually be operating it at a lower setting where you wont be seeing big flames leaping off the logs like the pictures show.
3rd I suggest not purchasing the side shield options for installing closer to walls, as they do work well, but if the heat isnt being radiated from the sides of the stove, then its just being wasted going up the chimeny.
The claims of 20hr burn times for my model, and 40 hour burn times from the King model are true. I have done a little over 20 hours with my model, using well dried poplar wood, and poplar is considered a poor firewood.
Overall this was the best thing I have ever bought, The money was well spend, and as a bonus it uses so little wood that 4cords was the most wood I used one year, with 3-3.5 being more typical.
Even if I didnt cut my own wood, and just had it cut, delivered, and stacked by the door it would only cost a few hundered dollars to have done for a years worth of heat.
After a few years of use I made a few changes to it, I now can clean the chimmeny without having to go up on the roof, and I also heat all my hot water with it ( in the winter). So if anyone does purchase this type of fireplace, and has some welding skills I can send some pics if they are interested in seting it up to do the same.
The cost is/was high but it is very much a case of what kind of value do you get for the cost, and when its -30,-40 at night, and I can sleep late (or stay overnight in the city) without having to get up to keep the fire going, then its money well spent YMMV.
John
PS: I do know of one person where this type of fireplace did not work 100%. They are living off grid in a trailer. They have the same model as I have in the living room, It works well but because the trailer must be 70+ feet long (and narrow) the heat does not make it to the back bedrooms well, even with the help of fans. They had to buy a propane type of wall mounted heater . It is a direct wall vent type that uses a standing pilot light. It looks like a wall mounted radiator. It works great, requires no power, takes up little room, and if I remember right was reasonably priced. With it mounted by the back bedrooms they have are comfortable.
pics
Wed, 2008-06-04 04:24
hey could you send me some pics of the set up, and the not going on the roof to clean the chimney appeals to me as well. thanks
matt
I'd like to see it John
John I'd really like to see how your heating coil is set up on your stove. I think a wood stove with an open loop water jacket set up is the way to go. An outdoor system sounds good but I just don't know about paying 6000 to 10,000 bucks for an outdoor stove. I think I'd build a log shed, put my own home made system in it and run insulated pex into my house for some style of hydronic heat. An extra connection point for a future garage is another feature I'd want to include.