Do you have a link?
I've heard of this before but I've never seen any proof from a reliable source that it works.
I think Mythbusters did a special on gadgets that are supposed to improve your gas
mileage but I can't remember if this was one of them.

Hydrogen add-ons:

http://www.drive-on-water.com/?gclid=CJavlvLvtZICFQ8vHgodf3h_kQ
http://water4gas.com/2books.htm?hop=kevinkanny

Daniel Dingel, a Phillipino inventor, claimed to have run his car on 100% on-the-fly Hydrogen, but kept his method secret, because he wanted the Phillipino people to gain from it, not the greedy bastards who apparently came to see his car. Here's his story on You-Tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVhXrvCCILw

Stan Meyer, whose untimely death has fueled many conspiracy theorists:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6yRn4IAsrU&feature=related

The "Joe Cell" is another Hydrogen on demand invention that people are trying to replicate:

http://www.thejoecell.com/
http://pesn.com/2006/04/13/9600257_Bill_Williams_threatened/

Here's one snippet of Joe himself talking about his car:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7785149275674305332

I found lots of info, including linkies to other sites, including a forum for hobbyists trying to replicate some of this stuff here:

http://peswiki.com/energy/Main_Page

My car is brand new and still under warranty, plus I can't afford to have it not work for me. So I won't be trying anything like this. Once I get my log home built (couple years from now, lol) IF I have some money to throw at an old junker, I might give it a try, hehe.

I think that there just might be something different about what these guys have come up with. It has something to do with a square wave pattern at the proper resonance frequency that "cracks" the H2O with less current than brute force current.

I have no freakin clue about electricity, really. I worry about being able to do any of my own electrical work sometimes, especially setting up anything off-grid / solar etc. because the stuff you post, Rod, blows my brain out.

Have you actually looked into any of this stuff, Rod? Or are you simply dismissing it based on whatever law that guy came up with 100+ years ago? I only ask because if you haven't given it any serious consideration, I'd be VERY intersted in your opinions about it AFTER you have, since you seem to be the most electrically inclined guy I know.

I don't ask or say this to be critical, or call you "closed minded" or any such nonsense either. But if we look back at scientific history, how many things did we believe could not be done, are now commonplace? I think of the Sound Barrier, the notion that the whole universe would explode if you split the atom, etc.

No, I wasn't misreading his post. Supplementing is clearly viable. The only real question there is getting the mix right to do more good than harm, and a question of how much benefit you can really get from it. I would never do it with a newer car with computer-controlled ignition, fuel injection etc. Nor would I try it with my primary auto.

I was addressing his dismissal of those more controversial claims. There are folks out there working on reproducing some of these gizmos, using square waves, etc. And I just wondered if Rod has looked into any of that stuff. The guy who "proved" that it takes more energy to crack hydrogen by electrolysis than the hydrogen combustion will produce used simple, brute-force current, without any consideration or experimatation with wave patterns, frequencies, various plate configurations, etc. I'd just like to hear the opinion of someone who has a clue about electricity has to say about these experiments after having devoted some serious thought to them.

I don't know about anyone's specific claims. I'm also not sure exactly which thing you are talking about.

I'm no chemist, but I'm pretty sure that if you took the same mass of gasoline vapor vs. hydorgen gas, that the hydrogen gas will make a much bigger kaboom. (How's that for scientific jargon?)

The problem that Rod pointed out, which is the big problem with hydrogen combustion cars, is that it takes MUCH more energy to create hydrogen gas by electrolysis than the combustion of the gas will produce. In other words, to zap the water to make hydrogen requires electricity. If you were to use a gasoline generator to produce the electricity, you would use more gasoline zapping the water than you would just using the gasoline to drive your car.

But this is based on the typical, brute-force electrolysis method of sticking two electrodes in the water and zapping away.

There are two basic theories / supposed inventions for hydrogen on the fly. One is to use frequencies, wave patterns, and electrode plate spacing to "crack" the water using way less current than brute force.

The other is to use some kind of carbon rods and use PLASMA to do the electrolysis. (Plasma is one of the "phases" of matter, like liquid, solid, and gas.) I'm guessing that the energy generated by the phase change is great enough to crack the water molecules with less electric current than brute-force zapping. (An example of harnessing phase change energy is refrigeration/AC/heat pumps, where using mechanical energy to compress and decompress freon between it's liquid and gas phases generates heat energy.)

I screwed up my reply now I gotta write it all over again.
Rod is right about that hydrogen is not produced economically enough yet. The Japanese produced and displayed a hydrogen car but it will never be produced. Too expensive. It's the same thing with ethanol. It takes more petrol to produce ethanol than if you were to just use the petrol itself.

Where did you read about the electronic 'splitting' of H2O? I know electronics and I'd like to see if I can make heads or tails of it. Gotta link?

As Klapton has indirectly stated< there is more than one way to skin a cat. We do know that we can extract the hydrogen from water, that is a fact. Old science says the rule is......in creating energy< you would have to spend about the same amount of energy it would take to create it.
Rod feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. From here on we get into theory, the fact that everything is made up of atoms and as most have witnessed< them little things can create a lot of energy. How does this happen? Through a chain reaction. I believe the same can happen when
extracting the hydrogen from water, though electrolysis if the same type of chain reaction can occur, then only a very small trickle from your battery would be needed (TO START THE CHAIN REACTION AND KEEP IT GOING) I do believe this has already been perfected to a small degree where as we can supplement gas with hydrogen. Even better results could be out there right now, a lot of people have claims there is.

Myself, I'm an electric car fan guy, LOL :-)

As politely as I can put it, PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINES DO NOT EXIST!!!!!! Everything in life requires more energy in than is returned. Even supposed super-conductors, which are claimed to be 100% efficient, fail to take into account the energy used for the cooling they require. There are no free lunches.

Consider this. IF there really was a way that a device could run by doing nothing more than pouring in water, the world would no longer have an energy issue. There's a reason no "breakthroughs" that so many claims, ever come to light. (and don't give me the oil companies conspiracy crap) I stand by that until someone can prove me wrong. (I have a feeling I'll be standing a long, long time) If that day were to actually happen, you can be sure it will be a glorious day indeed.

Now, I'm glad people are out there trying to come up with the miracle of infinite energy. Those folks are the most likely to stumble upon more efficient means of utilizing or extracting energy. Hydrogen is an extremely good fuel. I look forward to the day it can be as commonly used as gasoline.

Oh yea, and the question asked, "How much hydrogen in a gallon of water?"

4707 liters at standard atmospheric pressure and 32F. ;-) (I cheated and looked it up)

If there is 4707 liters of hydrogen in a gallon of water as Rod has stated, that is like saying there is over 1243+ gallons of hydrogen coming out of only 1 gallon of water. Now I wonder how many hydrogen atoms are in those 1243+ gallons of hydrogen? I don't see where perpetual motion has anything to do with the extracting of hydrogen from water. A hydrogen bomb surely releases much more energy than is put into it. There's that CHAIN REACTION thing again on a smaller scale, we have discovered that by splitting water we end up getting more of something (hydrogen) than the base (water) that we started with. "we started with 1 gallon of water and ended up with 1243+ gallons of hydrogen".

I can see the possibilities, but I'm still an electric guy when it comes to automotive motors, LOL :-)

well I dusted off my old chemistry muscles. here we go.

1gal= 3.785kg water, water is 1/9 H by weight so there is 0.4205 Kg of H per gallon

H2= 143 MJ/Kg so there are 60.14 Mj per Kg.

1 Hp/hour= 2.685Mj so there are 22 hp/hours in a gallon of water

for comparison there are 131 Mj per gallon of gasoline, which is 48 hp/hours per gallon. so if your car gets 30 mpg on gasoline you would get just under 15 mpg on pure hydrogen.

for a given volume of gas, gasoline has 17.6x the energy content of hydrogen, for a given weight hydrogen has 3x the energy

there are also 1.264*10exp26 H2 molecules per gallon of water.

Unfortunately there is self-sustaining chemical chain reaction that will produce fuel in the end. splitting water is endothermic and burning hydrogen and oxygen is exothermic. the exothermicness is what makes hydrogen a fuel.

even if these people make a hydrogen generator 100% efficient the cars alternator is only 90% efficient, so the system is already behind the 8-ball, so I am going to go and stand next to rod, and say it won't work.

TO THE CONTRARY, I never said otherwise, YES A Hydrogen bomb splits the atom, not a molecule.
However, keep in mind a molecule is also made up of atoms..............

My thread was based on what Rod said about perpetual motion. I was commenting that an atom can give off a terminus amount of energy in comparison to the energy put in to it, and that it does so because of a chain reaction that takes place. I further thorized that (IF) through electrolysis we could create a chain reaction, "NOT AN ATOMIC REACTION, WE'RE NOT MAKING BOMBS" then we would be able to create more energy out-put, then the energy that it would take to run the electrolysis.

Like Rod I also believe it's possible, and can be used, "as I said in a prior thread", in a supplemental way.

I hope this clears up my meaning. :-)

Usually an oscillator is used to create a sine wave which is then processed to make a square wave. A square wave is a combination of the frequency and its harmonics and then cleaned up for whatever it's used for. In electronics it is usually used for timing purposes or a switching signal. But I haven't a clue how it would be used to liberate hydrogen or break up a water molecule.

A battery producing H2 and O is vented to prevent explosions. Explosions can happen if the gasses are trapped and overheated. Which is why checking battery temperature is usually a good maintenance practice. Maybe there's a technology in there somewhere that may find its way to reality but it doesn't seem that any of the videos I watched really explained what it was. Maybe I'm missing it I did notice in one video where a guy was giving his presentation he kept referring to his patent. If he has a patent or one pending he probably isn't going to reveal his process unless he thinks he's gonna make some money. He just never came clean with the basic theory. So I don't know what to make of it.

Just for your info Klapton, the frequency is how many cycles that sine or square waves occur in a second. Sixty cycles is your frequency for alternating current that runs your house. Your house AC is usually at 120 volts which is how big the sine wave is and the current, the amps is the force (like water through a hose) that it travels. Batteries produce Direct current which does not oscillate. It is either positive or negative in relationship to ground potential. Don't know if this helps at all. I think it's an interesting chat anyway.

YES YES YES!!!! Now you're talking. The heck with 60 MPG hybrids that cost you more $/mile when you account for the cost of battery replacements. What a waste of resources. Germany nailed with a simple, straight 120 MPG diesel solution. (they bumped the specs down) Loremo (Low Resistance Mobile) is what I'd love my next car to be. Unfortunately, there's no plans to import this vehicle into the USA. :-( I've been hounding them, and they state it's due to difficult/expensive US safety standards. I believe it's more a marketing issue, being that Americans love big honkin' gas guzzlers, and Loremo doesn't see a profitable path with Americans likely to pull their noses up at a 20 HP car. (they also have a 50 HP version @ 80 MPH, and now an electric li-Ion version too) The projected price has since gone up massively since it's inception. (from $13K to $24K) Basically due to quelling over-optimistic construction costs and the weakening dollar. They've also backed up the production start from originally in 2009 to sometime in 2010.

Anyhow, run that puppy on Biodiesel or WVO, and put all to shame. :-)

There are two kinds of hydrogen bomb, Fusion and Fission.
Also there are three basic design types that causes a nuclear weapon to detonate, In all three, the explosive energy is derived primarily from nuclear fission NOT FUSION. Fusion cannot be self-sustaining because it does not produce the heat and pressure necessary for more fusion. It produces neutrons which run away with the energy. In weapons, the most important fusion reaction is called the D-T reaction. Using the heat and pressure of fission, hydrogen-2, or deuterium ( 2D), fuses with hydrogen-3, or tritium ( 3T), to form helium-4 ( 4He) plus one neutron (n) and energy:
Whenever a heavy atom undergoes nuclear fission it BREAKS INTO TWO OR MORE fission fragments. Also, several free neutrons, gamma rays, and neutrinos are emitted, and a large amount of energy is released. The sum of the masses of the fission fragments and ejected neutrons is actually less than the mass of original atom and incident neutron. The mass difference is accounted for in the release of energy according to the equation E=mc2:
The uranium atom can split any one of dozens of different ways, as long as the atomic weights add up to 236

Back when I was being all I can be in the military, I had a little car over in Japan. It was a two cylinder jobbie called a Honda Minica. It looked like a tiny tiny SUV but had what was no bigger than a motorcycle engine. I think the top speed was about 50-60 MPH. At 60, you were probably cheating death flying down hill but the roads over there were not designed for high speed anyway. At that time, the 70's, I was told that I could not bring my car back to the states because it did not have enough horsepower to be road rated. These days it's safety standards? I see people riding scooters in heavy American traffic but I can't drive a little Japanese Micro-SUV?

By the way, I found out on another forum that was discussing energy issues that diesel over in Germany sells for almost 11 bucks a gallon. I was floored.

A sign of things to come...I saw a group of white guys on bicycles in front of a local grocery store. One biker was towing a bicycle trailer carrying a cooler that he was filling with ice and beer. Another guy was towing a passenger compartment that looked like a 'rickshaw'. And another guy had a side car on his bicycle and had another really big dude as a passenger. The 'driver' was wearing a cone hat...you know, the same cone hats the Chinese peasants wear? Then there were two boy children who had saddlebag-like cargo compartments on their respective bikes. I think the energy of the future is going to be the measured in the miles per pound of hamburger meat we consume.

Just to show that other dogs can do it too...

http://www.rrgsmd.com/draftvehicles.htm

Some may take this post as a joke. It's not. I'm planning to do this. Hopefully there will be at least one small-town grocery within a couple miles of where I'll build. Another thing I figure I can train my dogs to do is pull a gang of reel mowers to cut my grass too. And these dogs LOVE doing this. That's the coolest thing.

I had a hard time finding a two-dog image that wasn't blocked by my office firewall (I'm at the office today). But they make two-dog harnesses, and I've seen historical photos of GSMD's pulling carts with a dozen or more children riding on the back, and carts with a dozen or so large milk canisters.

Dog food is much cheaper, and much more environmentally friendly than gasoline!

First, I'm obsessive about the perfection of my lawn. Grazing isn't going to cut it for me. Second, dogs do lots of other things like provide companionship and frighten potential tresspassers.

Lawn?? No lawn for me! I have 2 big hayfields. Don't need the pesticides and herbicides associated with the suburban illusion. I live in subrurbia now and I hate lawn care. I have 4 dogs right now and they do take care of the house but outside is for the livestock. And herbivore poo is great fertilizer.

A perfect lawn, for me, is like ridge pole envy. The perfection of my lawn reflects my moral superiority over my neighbors, and the immensity of my manhood.

My plan is to have a small, absolutely perfect lawn, and put the rest of my land to some more productive use.

How about this for an alternate form of transportation? They make great companions too.
http://www.harnessgoats.co.uk/

Klapton, more power to you with your yard. Some folks derive great pleasure in working their yard. That's cool but I'm definately not one of them. I once turned my horses out in the front yard all summer just so I wouldn't have to mow.

JD

Ok first of all no dog "hates discipline"... in fact dogs thrive on it. (all dogs)

Your problem is that your dog is not getting enough structured excercise. A large "working dog" like that needs at least 2 hours of structured excercise EVERY DAY. If it doesnt get it, it builds pent up energy and frustration. The result of that frustration can be horrible, as you are seeing.

It doesnt matter how large your backyard is, if the dog spends all day there by itself your dog will have problems.

Dont blame the dog, it's the owner who is to blame.

I'm sorry if this email sounds harsh but I see this all the time with dog owners... they blame their dog for it's discipline problems when they are in fact the cause of the problem.

If you really want to help your dog to lead a happy, healthy, and full life, I suggest you research the teachings of this man:

http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/

And for the record, pulling a cart around would make a PERFECT job for your dog. It's ironic that you think your dog cant do it because it has mental problems, but those mental problems are actually caused by it's lack of excercise. The very thing you think your dog wont do is exactly what your dog needs! Ironic. :)

Hitch your dog to a cart and after 15-20 minutes once it figures out what you want it to do, it will LOVE pulling the cart. Dogs love to work for you, they love the pack, they love excercise and discipline.

I promise you that if you hitch your dog to a cart and have it pull stuff around for an hour a day all your discipline, digging, and any other obsessive behavior the dog is exibiting will vanish into thin air. (I'm quite sure your dog exibits other obsessive behaviors.. that's always goes right along with lack of excercie... ESPECIALLY in a "working dog" that was bred to work all day long.... take a dog that is bred to work, put it in isolation and deprive it of excercise, and you get a dog with obsessive behavior and discipline issues.

Also please dont say that "he has a huge backyard, he can run and excercise all he wants". Unfortunatley that's not how it works. Dogs do not excercise themselves. They need YOU to do it with them. That's why I call it structured excercise.

Walking your dog, playing fetch, and things of that nature help, but with a really high energy working breed, you often need more than that. Having your dog carry a doggie-backpack is another great way to excercise your dog... And pulling a cart around is even harder work. Sounds like exactly what your dog needs to me.

List of things obsessive dogs tend to do (obsessive dog is caused by lack of excercise)
obsessive digging
trying to "escape"
tail chasing
dog-dog aggression
obsessive licking or chewing (both of itself and/or outside items like rocks)
dog-human aggression
obsessive barking and/or whining

All of those issues can be easily fixed with DAILY structured excercise. I've seen dogs that will chew holes in themselves, other dogs that will break their own teeth chewing on rocks. I've seen dogs that will attack on site anything and anyone they dont know. Dogs that will bark 16 hours a day, every day. ALL OF THOSE dogs came back from their problems with the correct application of structured excercise.

Anyway sorry for the rant but you struck a nerve. If your dog is acting that way, it means it's suffering.

LOL. I suppose you're right... I was afraid my post was way too aggressive... But I kept getting mental images of this husky obsessively digging holes in a desperate effort to spend some of that toxic pent-up energy.

Perhaps I need more excercise myself.... :)

On 2nd reading I feel bad. Sorry Rob. I shouldnt have gone off like that.

I think I'm just really frustrated by my own fence... my own cage. I'm stuck in there and chewing my own hands off trying to get out. That frustration sometimes comes out in my relations to others. So sorry about that. :(

I must admit that is a really great looking lawn, can I assume there is also a very nice irrigation system as well? Also, in what state is it located and what type of seed was used.
Very-Very nice :-)

Wow. That's some serious lawn! Ever try a garden?

I love getting out in the yard and making it look nice. When I bought this place 12 years ago, a new front yard was one of my first major projects. To this day I still have one of the nicest yard on the entire street (at least in the front). The problem is my neighbor has one of the worst, and it's bermuda grass on top of that! Dead in the winter (N. Cal, zone 9 I think (sunset western gardener)) and invasive the rest of the year. What a pain in the rear, it's always getting in my plants, crawling under the fence, trying to grow into my shed, GRR! It's taken over the backyard. I wish I could carpet bomb it with napalm! As I'm mowing the yards and thinking about log homes, it often crosses my mind that a new home would mean NO MORE BERMUDA GRASS!

If we believe in absurdities, we will commit atrocities. -Voltaire