I worry about that too, Peter....about what will happen when the things we need to survive become too much money or just not available. we're working off the same model as you, solar for electric, wood for heat (do plan on some propane stuff though....don't have that part well thought out yet...) green house, gardens, chickens...fishing:)
we need to be able to sustain ourselves. relying on there always being cheep electric an cheep gas isn't the answer.
We lived for years out in the middle of nowhere and off the grid. Started out as a bachelor/hermit with candles and an occasional fiireup of the gas lantern. When the wife came along and domesticated me we had to go modern. I remember my first generator like it was yesterday and it changed everything to have electricity again. Finally ended up with a 5000W powerplant for charging batteries while running the washing machine or power tools and a 900w Honda that would run 4 hours on 1/2 gallon. Oh, those long winter evenings with the Honda running until it ran out of gas were wonderful! Super quiet lights and VCR and microwave all for a half dollar per night.
Then the wife started doing the books for a local solar guy and it all went to heck. Suddenly we HAD to have solar panels and an inverter and WOWWW it was great. We only had to run a generator in the winter once in awhile and mostly did it on laundry day. Man, a generator is really noisy once you have solar power.
Then suddenly we realized that we had quite a bit of water running down the hill to that old waterpower shack. The 100 year old Pelton wheel was long past resurection but the water line was still there. We bought a small micro-Pelton and set it up and suddenly had more power than we could use. We had to wire in "dump" loads to burn off power when the batteries were full. Five of the solar panels went on the motorhome and the rest were traded away.
Seventeen years ago we moved back close to town and have power from the grid. We live in a north-facing canyon that has no solar potential and no waterpower or wind either. I don't miss the generators but I do miss the independance I had back in the old days. Several time I remember heading to work before daylight during a storm when I would cross over the hill five miles from home only to enter what felt like the twilight zone. I had just left my Wife and Baby at home in a snug, warm cocoon complete with lights and all the comforts of home and here I was looking at a valley full of homes and a small town that was in complete blackout.
I don't know much about alternative power in the city but it can be a blessing for folks who live in the sticks.
I think you may be right about the sooner than later part peter. I have been planning much of my strategy with this colapse scenario in mind. My wife thinks I am peranoid. I even went so far as ordering emergency seed banks, and stocking up on other essentials. I would like a place out in the middle of nowear, but for now I still need to consider having gainfull employment. Even on a completely self suficient homestead you need to pay property taxes. If you have any tips for convincing the wife to move out in the middle of nowear, I am all ears. Anyway, as for the coming colapse, there is a lot of handwriting on the wall already. Ever listen to or read any of Glenn Beck. I just finished his book arguing with idiots. A must read!
I am conserative but the next generation will face sustainability issues - so I think it is prudent to look at power, heat, food production issues with a ten to twenty year plan. I am planting edible landscape stuff. I am looking at green house stuff becasue in Washington we need more heat units for certain kinds of vegatables.
Just an observation but just mentioning some ones name and a book should not cause a problem... where is our freedom of thought?
I am planting edible landscape stuff.
***NOTE*** - I have no political or social agenda. These are just comments/observations.
I've been fascinated in the last year or so with the articles in Mother Earth News and other periodicals documenting where folks in suburbs are converting their sod squares to productive, food-bearing plots around their cookie-cutter homes. I think this is a great idea for non-rural efforts at sustainability and lower burdens on our commercial food growers and distributors.
This year, I took my first step at getting back to my roots (rural childhood with gardens and livestock) and grew three good tomato plants which yielded some tasty organic vegetables (or fruits, if you are among the quibblers on that point). Next year, I plan to do that again and expand to also have some peppers and a couple of other test plants. I'll be renting while I build next year (and the year after, most likely), so I can't get chickens yet. But they're part of my plan in the future. A butt-and-pass chicken coop!
In 2008-09, several groups noted a spike in the interest and activities of small home gardeners. higher gas and food prices, combined with growing concerns about the quality and safety of commercial food production continue to push homeowners back into self-sufficiency.
I think this is great! For 100 years, "progress" caused populations to abandon the countryside and move into towns. Now, "progress", as we defined it then, appears to have led us astray in many ways, demonstrating that our forefathers were wiser than we recognized. Self-sufficiency is not always being completely "off the grid" in today's world. It can be small steps like three tomato plants and a few pepper plants. But if EVERYONE took that small step, think of the cumulative effect it would have on America's food industry and dependence on commercial sources. Now multiply that effect if more of us produced our own eggs (I hear they're better tasting when not raised in commercial environments, too). Keep moving this up another notch. If everyone had one acre to dedicate for their family's local food production, they could raise one steer every year on that acre for beef in their freezers (or a few field pigs - not all have to be kept in pens).
That's my ultimate plan - a small garden, ten or fewer chickens for eggs and occasional fresh rotisserie source, and a steer every year or two (to feed my family of four). I've recently estimated that those few things (along with my seasonal hunting for deer/rabbits and occasional fishing successes) would eliminate approximately 1/3 of my family's grocery purchases by volume, and close to 1/2 of those purchases by cost. An added benefit to this is that my family's diet and health would improve owing to the lack of processed ingredients and drop in biocontamination (antibiotics, pesticides, etc.). And I haven't even looked at the reduction in the much-maligned "carbon footprint".
In the end, I think it is the "right thing to do" for everyone to become more self-sufficient and raise some of their own food. Even without doomsday scenarios, it just makes sense to avoid the dangers of commercial food production and to reduce the country's (and the world's) high-impact food production model. Small-scale food production has proven time and again to be the best for quality and safety. It also just happens to be better for the small farmer's health and constitution!
Just my thoughts on the matter. I applaud everyone who goes down this path of self-sufficiency. If you can accomplish complete "off the grid" existence, great! If you can't, I still encourage small efforts to move closer to the goal of reducing corporate foodmongers and restoring farming and homesteading heritage.
DGC
.
Just an observation but just mentioning some ones name and a book should not cause a problem... where is our freedom of thought?
Freedom of thought? You're welcome to think whatever you want to. But talking about political topics on the log home forum has caused many problems in the past, and Ellsworth has asked us repeatedly to stop. There are places for these kinds of discussions and these forums are not the place for it.
I'll happily send you an email with my own book suggestions, and and I'll give you my opinions on Glen Beck and others. But not here.
So please keep to the subject as we have been asked repeatedly to do.
Certainly you understand that when someone starts talking about a clearly devicive political commentator like Glen Beck that it sets the stage for a thread derailment, followed by a thread lock.
If people are going to post their thoughts on political matters to express their "freedom of though" then I'm going to as well, and that will insta-lock the thread.
most people and make up my own mind. I have never even watched or read anything from Mr Beck. I have no idea what he says.
However, I did watch some "green network" and they act like everything could be fixed by using solar and other reneweable energy sources. it is not possible with the current population and with our current quality of life.
that is all I meant to say.
most people and make up my own mind. I have never even watched or read anything from Mr Beck. I have no idea what he says.
However, I did watch some "green network" and they act like everything could be fixed by using solar and other reneweable energy sources. it is not possible with the current population and with our current quality of life.
that is all I meant to say.
Yeah I'm glad the masses are getting excited about green technology. But I agree, that channel seems very niave to me.
You cant run a steel mill on solar power, wind power, or any kind of hippie juice. Maybe someday all our power will be green but we're talking decades or longer until the REAL power cost of billions of humans on this planet can be harvested without breaking out all that trapped carbon.
I find the same ignorance on the part of many people born and raised in rural areas. How things work in a city of millions is often beyond their comprehension.
As I have reported before, there is a book "Plenty, the 100 mile diet" or something like that. I believe that is is Niave to ignore the basic fact that we eat stuff based on cheap oil. I could care less about the climate - I'm 65 years old and if I live another 10 years, I will beat all of my relatives... But eating grapes and peaches for Chlie, fish from China is Niave.
We must become much more sastainable.
And if I want to mention a book or some ones name, I will. What I do is follow the rules posted. I do not mention anyones name even though I think they are full of stuff that I get near exit 206 on I-5.
I think Rocklock got it right on with the word sustainability. If an individual can grow his or her own food supply in a sustainable way, then we have much in the way of independence, freedom, and security. I guess that is what I am really after. True, our nations food supply largely depends on cheap oil, but I do not agree with Yuhjn when he says "the industrialization of our food production is the most dangerous attack on our freedom by corporate america. Lets take a look at one definition I found online...Industrialize: To organize (the production of something) as an industry. OK, now when you have millions of people to feed, manufacturing of that food in an industrial capacity is the only logical solution. Of course if everyone could produce for themselves in an earth friendly way, we would all be better off. However, that is unreasonable, and unrealistic to expect. How is a family living in a major metrapolitan area suppose to do that? Now again, We are talking milions and milions of people here. You can't tell me that food industrialization is an attack of any sort. Quite the contrary. It has enabled folks to work and live and perform in countless ocupations outside of farming. Industrialization has also provided jobs, as well as a healthy free market of capitilazation. (at least untill the gov. buys Betty crocker, and Little Debby) What we should be focusing on is sustainable energy instead of industry itself. Why does everyone want to attack industry. Capatilism is bona fide American all the way. If you get rich by outselling Dunkin Donuts, and you do it by providing quality product, good service, and the right buissiness plan...I know that B word sounds a lot like industrialize, then you deserve to get rich. If you want to discuss what is the most dangerous attack on our freedoms, I would not look to corporate America, I would look to the Feds, and politicians, but that is another story. Not trying to stir a bee's nest here, but I could not sit this one out any more.
In these situations I either try to be a voice of reason or I just stay out of it. This time I feel a need to put my 2 cents in. Being a recently retired 23 year veteran that has been deployed on multiple occasions I feel a need to back up Brianroy on this one. Here is a guy that is in overseas, in harms way, serving in the military. Because he recommends a book by a certain author, someone feels a need to become self appointed moderator. As far as keeping it about log homes goes, this is the solar alternative energy thread, although the subject matter has shifted to self sufficiency. If anyone is up for some healthy debate on this subject or if you just wanna send me some hate mail you can reach me at hemlock76@sbcglobal.net
Brianroy; If you feel I have overstepped in any way I apologize to you. Thank you for what you do and be safe.
Stu
http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/hemlock77/
Thank you Stu. You are always more than welcome to coment in any way you see fit, and I thank you for your kind words. I agree, I ussualy try to stay out of stuff also, but I just could not help myself. It seems like every time I turn around someone is attacking our country, heritage, or way of life. Folks do this either intentionally, or out of ignorance, simply regurgitating some opinion they herd from some lefty socialist. Ussually these people don't mean any harm per say, but the things they say are dangerous, and encourage others to follow suit. As for all this tying into alternative energy, let me say this... Yes we have steered off course, but we have struck an important note here that needs to be heard. The focus has shifted to "corporate America" VS. (whatever the alternative to that is) So, what is the alternative to corporations, buissiness, and free market? Well, comunism, or socialism. We can even call them progressives if that brand suits them better. Dosn't matter, it's all the same. Now I proclaim and support the notion that capatalism is the only way a people can continue to grow economically, encourage inovation threw competition, and provide the environment for entreprenurs to enhance products and services for the common wealth. So...by doing so, we have in effect provided the FREEDOM for the people, as well as encouraged them to develope in a productive and healthy way. That is a huge underlying theme for self suficiency. Instead we have people bashing the succesfull, and wealthy. I will admit, there is a lot of greed in the industrys, but ethics, and morals, are something momy should have taught. Also, we have our own minds and common sense as consumers, and we have a responsibility to act accordingly. If a person spends their money on a pair of widgets on late night QVC, and they are disapointed with what they bought, then they have no one to blame but themselves. Everyone wants to put their burdens off on others it seems, and ask for handouts along the way. It all boils down to responsibility, and at the end of the day whatever decisions we made, good or bad, as long as we had the freedom of choice, we will always have the oportunity to right our wrongs and fulfill our dreams.
Hey, I'm a card carrying Amercan military veteran log house guy who is stuck halfway between sitting back and watching, and wanting to jump in in defense of someone who I disagree with on this particular topic. This is a log-homebuilding forum with a moderator who is very good at leaving things to wander as they may.
In the past there have been times when this forum has deviated into a writhing mass of name-calling, and defensiveness as we see the common bond that we all share (love of things log) being set aside so that we may discover our political differences. As some of us gang up on someone who demonstrates a passion for another point of view, we end up making a bad guy out of someone who has a lot in common with us as it pertains to this forum.
If I volunteered during a conflict some 30 years ago, it matters only to shed light on the fact that I have an experience with the military. The fact that I am old enough to have retired from the military before some of you were born, only indicates that I have had a few extra years to think things over.
I think what matters on this forum is our unique similarities and not our differences. I commend those of you who are champing at the bit to say your piece on this thread but have chosen to remain silent. My appologies to those I have offended.
I am looking at green house stuff becasue in Washington we need more heat units for certain kinds of vegatables.
Greenhouses do require heat at times. I saw an article in a farm show magazine some time back in which a lady used the heat generated from her compost pile to heat the beds in her greenhouse. It extended her growing season significantly. You probably would have a hard time generating enough compost on your own for this, but if you had some brought in(manure/shavings, lawn clippings, etc) it might work out well.
Loghousenut, your dog is very yodaish. :cool:
I am looking at green house stuff becasue in Washington we need more heat units for certain kinds of vegatables.
Greenhouses do require heat at times. I saw an article in a farm show magazine some time back in which a lady used the heat generated from her compost pile to heat the beds in her greenhouse. It extended her growing season significantly. You probably would have a hard time generating enough compost on your own for this, but if you had some brought in(manure/shavings, lawn clippings, etc) it might work out well.
Loghousenut, your dog is very yodaish. :cool:
When the tree butchers clear the powerlines I am a dependable place for them to leave a load or two of wood chips. We use the stuff for mulch and pathways. It steams for quite awhile while it is still green and I have always wondered if a little nitrogen fertilizer would make it hot enough to somehow use. Too much work of course but it's always fun to think about something for nothing.
PS... When I let the dog read your post she said "Very perceptive he is!".
that is cool!
i don't have enough of a hill on the property, but that could be remedied by moving dirt around.
i just had a thought though, what if you had one of these attached to the south side of the house, maybe 3 or 4 feet into the ground, and the "roof" of the greenhouse ended below your 1st floor windows.
would that be considered protecting your logs from rain even more, or would it make too much moisture near your logs?
or would the overhangs cut out too much sunlight anyway?
hmmm....
I just read somewhere that chickens put out the same heat as a 40 watt bulb ( not sure if true or not ) If you could raise a flock/gaggle/herd of these inside the greenhouse during the winter.... :-)
Tesla Turbine
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/tesla-turbine.htm/printable
Loghousenut, your dog looks pretty stoned in the first picture....you must be keeping her out late. And in the second....oh, what a begger face that is! Too many table scraps, eh?
And just to show how smart some women are, we have a friend who has one of these little dogs and she talked my wife into getting this one. Our friend eats with the dog on the table and chews the dogs food and, on the whole, kinda acts like she loves the dog more than I love my forklift (yeah, I don't understand either).
My wife decided from the start that just because it's a little dog doesn't mean it has to be a yapper or act like a wind-up toy every time the chicken come off the bar-BQ. The dog has never been fed people food and you'll get bit (by the wife) if you're the first to try it. Consequently we have a very happy little dog who thinks she is better than we are and doesn't want to act like a human or eat that crap we feed ourselves. She is perhaps the first perfect dog I've ever been around and all due to my perfect Wife, with a little help from the dog whisperer.
Here's the brains of the outfit leaning on the 2nd sill log in her,yet to be finished, log house.
Here's the brains of the outfit leaning on the 2nd sill log in her,yet to be finished, log house.
Great pic. She looks like a very wise woman.
I have a chocolate lab, and same story. Never eaten human food, and everyone who comes around knows I would probably kill them if they ever dared to feed him. My dog never begs or whines or has any food issues at all. In fact he's pretty much the poster-dog for well behaved dogs.
I do feed him a premium food, Solid Gold Hundenflocken, and he gets 1.5 cups twice a day.
Also a big dog whisperer fan.
I recently lost my Yellow Lab Service Dog (I am a gimp) after 12.5 years together. She was 14.5 when she passed in her sleep. Since I took her into restaurants and such, people food was never a big problem. People wanting to feed her was, sometimes, but she would never have taken anything from anyone except me. I was very lucky for a very long time. Now my wife has to put up with me all alone. I'm still lucky, not sure about my wife though.
Loghousenut,
Did NOT mean any disrespect to your little friend....its a very cute dog. And your better half looks very wise indeed. When I look at a picture, I always try to imagine what's going on outside the frame, or what was just said to the subject. Just something I do from my past as a video director.....knowing all the comotion that occured right outside of the frame.
Ed,
Sorry to hear about your loss.
October 2008, I had to put down my dog, Samanatha Jo, which was acquired for the kids and I was her true master. She lived 14 good years. I miss her, but I don't hear noises anymore that I think are her. I cried like a baby while the vet did his deed. Amazing how our animals/pets are many times closer than family. Now I'm dealing with a bird and a cat that my wife has brought with her into our marriage. I shower most every morning with the bird on the shower door and he likes eating PB&J on toast with me for breakfast (and eggs, and corn flakes, etc.). The cat, well, we "see" her at night when she's lying on top of us on the bed.
So, don't take me wrong, I love animals.....especially those that remind me of Taco Bell :)
And it never was about log houses anyway so let's talk dogs.
Jay, you've gotta know that I took your comments about the wife's dog like you meant it. Smart dog that she is, even if you really did suspect her of being a stoner/mooch/beggar, she would never know it unless I read the posting to her (she's a dog).
Ed, It's time to get another gimphelper dog. You'll never get over loosing your lab (been almost 20 years since I lost "that dog"), but you'll get through never getting over it quicker if you spend that affection on the irreplaceable's replacement.
Yuhjn, Thanks for helping us hijack this thread. Come to think of it I suspect it was all your fault.
Now back to Peter and his opening comments about green living. In the background of the photo of my goodlookin Son and his killer forklift you'll see the green home we've been living in for too long. Don't think it's very environmentally sound but it is really green. PS You guys have GOT to get yourselves one of these telehandler forklifts... They are the best!
Yes indeed that is one fun toy. I rented to pull out lifting poles and get ridge pole on the box. It is basically a rock crawler with a high capacity boom.
Stu
http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/hemlock77/
200 years ago hot beds were heated with about 18" of
hot manure. 6" of topsoil was then placed over the
active manure. The rows, which were only 2' wide were
covered with wire hoops and the plants covered with
glass bells, or a white cloth. It greatly extended the
growing season.
and....
What's with the price of telehandlers and other heavy
equipment? The price of everything is dropping (my land
hit a high of $118,000. Now it is worth about $54,000,
but tractors, and telehandlers seem to have stayed
right at the same price for the past several years.
I'm still waiting to buy....
i just had a thought though, what if you had one of these attached to the south side of the house, maybe 3 or 4 feet into the ground, and the "roof" of the greenhouse ended below your 1st floor windows.
would that be considered protecting your logs from rain even more, or would it make too much moisture near your logs?
or would the overhangs cut out too much sunlight anyway?
I had a similar idea for that. I'd attach a greenhouse to the south side of the log home, mostly sunk into the ground. Then circulate the air from the greenhouse into my house. Very cheap way to heat your home. I'm not sure about the moisture problems though.
It's not entirely clear from the picture I posted before but the roof is made of glass (or some other translucent material). So you should have no problems with losing sunlight.
LHBA member, Thomas Elpel did something similar in his home. http://www.hopspress.com/Books/Living_Homes.htm
He built using various methods (bnp, stone, slipform, etc) and integrated a greenhouse into the south face.
I paid $12,500 for mine, it had brand new foam filled tires, fresh paint, and was obviously extremely well maintained, (lots of grease everywhere, old mechanic buddy was very impressed with it, no leaks anywhere, started first turn) I have used it to build my entire house, and have had offers of over 10k for it, though I am keeping it. rent was over 2000 a month for one, and even if I lost 2500 on it, I have used it for over a year, which would be a cost of $200 a month, exremely well worth it. I am hoping after I have built 3 or 4 of them, I might get a little bigger lift, Mine is 37ft reach, with 6000lb capacity. it has done everything I have asked of it, though I feel like It has been at capacity a couple times, I would like to have had a little more of a cushion with reach and lift. but I can complain at all about it. I heart my Lull!!
Too much emphasis is being placed on the dooms day scenario. The focus only needs to be on doing the right thing, simply because it`s the right thing to do.
I am most amused that the world over there is so much talk about the need for food security, and yet so little is being done to encourage, and ensure the preservation of the methods of natural sustainable agriculture.
I guess it all boils down to the 'those who know better doing better' scenario.
I grew up in the islands and was fortunate to have had the oppotunity to see some of the well built shingle cottages, and experience the use of what we call in this region coal pots, and the clay ovens.
From personal experience, I have found that the use of the inner shell of the coconut to be a very efficient means of clean burning energy,give a nice glow(a truly renewable source of energy)
My dream is to convert my family`s 36 acre farm to a log cabin heaven, while maintaining natural and sustainable methods of agriculture, including aquaponics integration.
I am very pleased and grateful for the vast knowledge and insight that is available on log cabins through the use of this site.
I will update the forum on the progress, and would welcome any guidance and suggestions with my project.
SpringValley
"The Best Things In Life Are Always The Most Natural"
SpringValley,
I am assuming you have heard of permaculture? I have read and noted the main "text book" by Bill Mollison. He has a school in Australia also. It is not only fascinating but completely doable. Also there are good videos like "The Future of Food" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Future_of_Food).
Our ranch will be sustainable and non-reliant on any outside sources.
It is a wonderful thing once you have built up your food forests.
Hey Peter,
I totally agree with you. I recently read a book (can't remember the name if anyone can help out here) but it was written by a former New York Times editor, who turned survivalist. There was alot of cool information about how to survive an economic and social collapse.
I have been exploring my new cable channels with my HD package, I have been watching some shows on "Green Network." Man, watching this channel, you'd think we are all able to run all of our needs on wind/solar/veggie oil. And save money!
What I cannot understand is the mantra that "we just need to be more efficient with our usage." The other day I was looking a show where they were making electricity with a micro-hydro system... they used a terribly inefficient turbine and they exposed the journal bearings to tons of water. I don't expect this to work for many years.
What I object to is that they keep showing how green technology works in rural situations--absolutely, when you only require 1 kW of energy, and there is no other people within a two day's hike, no problem.
But when you have tens of thousands of people within an acre, this technology is not possible (even with a well designed turbine).
Anyway, this shows what can be done, but it is not a cheap as they make it out to be. Not as easily, and it is NOT a solution for the masses.
Anyway, that is one reason why I am building a self sufficient ranch in a sparsely populated area. If (when) oil/natural gas/coal runs out, and there is not enough nuclear/solar AND there are 8 or 10 billion people each wanting their share--prices for everything will skyrocket. On my 20 acres, I will be able to make a small greenhouse, I'll have enough wood for heat and enough solar for power (also with a genset or 2--running on veggie oil/woodgas and a tesla turbine that runs off wood). Anyway, I meant this to put a damper on all of the greenheads that take these type of shows as gospel. Turns out that I am passing a warning to get out of the cities, have an alternate place to go. I am sad to say, but famine is coming sooner than later. I suspect 9/10 of the planet will perish when the grid starts to fail and the supermarkets emty out.
-Solemnly, Peter
LHBA member since 2006