anyone have experiance using a root cellar? I am considering using a basement for just that. I would think a dirt floor would be best along with standard cement walls instead of ICF forms. I would also assume a very well isulated 1'st floor would be necessary to keep out the cill of the root cellar/basement below. This project would be in maine, so keeping cooler temps down there should be no worries. Obviously the basement would no longer be usable as living space, but for an off grid food storage option, I think this would work well, and save a lot of money as oppose to building a finished basement, and then a root cellar seperatly. Any advise on root cellaring is welcome.
root cellaring
Comments
11/02/2009 - 20:09
root cellar
My neighbor has a root cellar. Four main things - keep it dry, dark, not too cold and keep the critters out. Freezing stuff is not good if it refreezes them. The ice cristals move around and destroys the products from the inside... Target temp is about 35 to 40 depending on the product. Potatoes are higher - about 45 if memory serves. Look up USDA food storage guidelines for the specific product.
I doubt that icf's would make much difference. I think you could make part of you basement a root cellar if the cellar is insulated from the heated part - which is what my neighbor has...
11/03/2009 - 00:21
not freezing
should not be an issue, as you are talking about temps underground, which engineering school tells us are roughly constant @ around 50 deg F. This won't get you to the desired temp, however.
if you were really aiming at the ultimate temp, you could add a half basement with half living space and half root cellar. make the whole thing out of ICF's, run a freezer unit with an external thermostat (and the lid off, the condenser side on the living side). You have to use a freezer, b/c regular AC won't get down to 40 deg F. Anyway, if you want to get really fancy, you can divide the root cellar with plastic barriers (you can just use 5mil sheeting) and some fan dampers that take the coldest air and force it into the other sections.
Anyway, I would think that you will not need more than 1 year of storage for most of your fruits/veggies so I would not go to the difficulty of modifying a freezer, etc.
If you are going totally EOTWAWKI, then you can add some bins full of beans and grains in your refrigerated root cellar with nitrogen gas environment. I don't know how long this will last, but I suspect a decade is not out of the question. You could do the same for taters and apples, etc and extend the life on these as well.
FWIW
11/03/2009 - 03:06
Peter - some more info - I left out a few things
If the cellar has about 5 to 6 feet of earth covering it the it will reach terminal temp for that area... In Washington that is about 50 degrees (just a note Tucson's temp is about 56 degrees). So obviously additional cold is required. The easiest way is natural ventilation. A thermal chimney uses hotter air rising to suck in colder air. Keeping a record, it is easy to increase or decrease the cold by increasing or decreasing the amount of air allowed in. Also, if stuff starts to go bad, you must remove those items because they produce bad gas (methane or something like that...)
It really is easy to achieve 40 degrees, especially in Washington. Also, you want stuff covered with clean sawdust, straw or something like a thermal blanket so that daily variations in temp don't affect the products.
11/03/2009 - 06:33
root cellars
Well guys, I will be in maine and plan most of my long term storage over the fall and winter. Any fruits/vegetable not suited for long term storage I will can. There should be no problem getting things cold enough down there. Peter, I apreciate all the advise, but I am going for a more organic and natural storage plan. I believe some ventilation that will vent air closer to the floor and a small window that I can open and close on the opposit end would do. I have also heard that you want high humidity, but not wet as Rocklock mentioned. I have also read something about the sawdust too. I think for the floor I will go with simply dirt or possibly some gravel. This is for an off grid home/cabin, so I am trying to incorporate some old school technology here.
11/03/2009 - 19:29
several web sites ... better info than I have
This is also the place to store your home canned goods... Canned good have a shelf life and keeping them cool is a good way to extend their shelf life... There are a ton of references on the internet... Here are some...
A small story. I designed where to put stuff in a 20 million buck cold storage facility about 30 years ago. We had several (4) rooms for the storage of fruits and vegetables. The temps were 33, 38, 45 and 55 if I remember correctly. The first two had different humidity's and the potato room had no lights and the egg room had almost 100% humidity. The reason I stated this is I can't find this stuff on the USDA's web site... I will continue to look...
http://oldfashionedliving.com/rootcellar.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/06/garden/06root.html
https://www.motherearthnews.com/Modern-Homesteading/1980-07-01/How-To-Build-Root-Cellar.aspx
http://www.organicgardening.com/feature/0,7518,s1-5-19-173,00.html
This is the best temp guide that I could find...
http://www.glacierbay.com/Foodstoretemp.asp
11/03/2009 - 19:46
Wow Rocklock, great info
Wow Rocklock, great info here! They are now all in my favorites so I can study them a little closer. Just at a glance from the temp. chart, 30-32 degrees seems like an optimal temperature for most things I plan to keep. Now, I just need to decide if ICF would still be the way to go or not.
11/08/2009 - 08:28
I recemmend against ICF.
1.
I recemmend against ICF.
1. price
2. The foam MUST be shielded from boring predators
(worms, ants). They will turn your unprotected ICF into
a honeycomb in very short order. The below grade
must be protected (4" block wall over foam, plastic
barrier, that is not pulled or torn by backfill, stone
fascia, etc.).
-Rick
11/08/2009 - 17:27
ICF's, no???
They do cost a buck or two, but then so do forms for a poured wall unless you have a friend in the business. There is as question of sealing and drainage but that also has to be addressed with any other wall. As for the bug infestation problem I can't find any discussion of a problem. It looks to me like there is no real reason for the rascals to wanna worm their way into the ICF. OK Rick, back it up about the bugs and change my mind.
11/09/2009 - 03:52
bugs & ICF
First time I heard of ICF's was on this old house. They
warned that the foam must be protected from boring
bugs as they will turn the foam into honeycomb.
Last Summer I was moving some foam insulation and
the foam sitting on the bottom (against the ground)
was a total honeycomb. Carpenter ants. It took them
little time to turn the foam to powder. It took hours to
kill off the ants. They just love the stuff.
That said, I am putting foam insulation on the outside of
my foundation, but the plan is to cover the foam with 4"
blocks.
-Rick
11/09/2009 - 15:23
Insects and ICF
I have looked at ICF, trying to figure out if it is the best way to go. The home site goes into ICF construction a great deal. Here is the link to their myths and truths about ICF and insects. http://www.icfhome.com/DYKpages/dykTRUTHmyth8.htm
11/09/2009 - 19:55
ICF's
There are quite a few articles on the web about using or not using ICF's in areas prone to termites and carpenter ants. I think the waterproof membrane stuck to the outside of the forms that are at or below grade is supposed to work pretty well with insects. It is a little troubling that I cant find anything about it on the few ICF company websites that I looked at. If the membrane solved the problem, you would think that they would put that on their sites.
Patrick
Joined: 2008-05-26