I really like reading your updates, as you seen like a rather informed guy. You probably know that you will get more out of your solar electric system to run as many things as you can with the 12 or 24 dc volts it is producing. The inverters can be a large inefficiency in the system, but might be needed for things like a modern high efficiency washing machine.

What voltage comes out of the wind mill? Are the two systems tied together so that a single failure of a piece will leave you completely in the dark or do they work in complete parallel?

I'd aim for the gravity feed water system too, it can take a real burden away from your everyday life if you don't have to worry with pumps, etc. Just bury the pipe deep so it will never freeze. I hope to have one, but am not counting on it either.

If you want to save some electricity, you could get another wind mill and use it to compress air for use in your workshop, there are lots of air tools out there these days. I saw a similar set up on the net somewhere, but can't find it again.

Jeff

Could you post a link to the "earth-tube cooling system" or go into more detail on this? Also, for your washing machine, what type do those big diesel pusher RV's use? are they 3-way as well? I don't know.

Yea, well, that's another reason for my decision. Land where power isn't readily available will typically be less expensive. Simply a plus for me. Kind of like a stick shift car costing less, and I love stick.

Yea, converting a top load freezer to fridge sounds like a pretty good idea. I always dred the thought of all the cold air pouring out of a regular fridge when you open the door, though it recovers pretty quick with the thermal mass of everything that's stored in it.

The windmill will put out 0 to 100 DC rectified volts. (depending on wind speed) It will reach battery bank voltage (25v) at about 7.5 MPH and begins charging.

The solar charging system and the wind turbine charging system are completely separate of each other. Only the battery bank will be the common point of both systems. If one goes down, it doesn't affect the other.

I'll do better than that. One of the best pages I found on the subject is http://mb-soft.com/solar/intake.html What I like about the page is, they provide a ton of information, don't try to sell you anything, not even any advertising. I feel it's a honest view, with no hidden agendas. Just says it like it is. Very good reading.

I have no idea what they have in them rigs, but I bet they are expensive! :lol:

Yea, I sure have. And let me tell you, the real hassles and expense come when you try to do such a thing. It can be such a problem, that people have taken (less than legal) measures to circumvent the hassles government put's in place. They are called Solar Guerrillas. Some of their stories can be found here: http://www.homepower.com/magazine/guerrilla.cfm One story that got me is the power company wanted to charge a customer a $20/month "monitoring fee" even though he was producing his own power. Another story, a guy would be charged if he sent power to the grid, as the meter he had didn't recognize flow direction, only how many Kw passing through. Yet another had a "racheting" meter, that wouldn't turn backwards. Power companies aren't to receptive to "self generating" folks. They'll put you through a lot of hurdles and expenses for the privlege of tying to their grid. And, when the grid goes down, so do you, unless you also have a battery bank. Most grid tied systems don't.

Nope, definitely no grid-tying for me. I'll make due with what ever power I can generate. If I have a few days of calm and cloudy days, I'll just limit back my usage. :wink:

I am off grid at the weekend place. The nearest power pole is about 3 miles away. Realitor says "Power Nearby" Translastion = "Not to your place, Not in your lifetime, or your kids lifetime for that matter."
Wind has been an issue, tearing off the tracker. So, I just put up an airX wind turbine to harness some of that wind. It seems to run pretty well. I'm not resourcful enough to build my own turbine. I still have power problems, but I am pretty sure it has to do with the age of the batteries. I need to replace them, but no funds right now.

Off-grid is a way of life. You have to learn to adapt your power use, unless of course you have lots of money and can afford tons of equipement.

Before the airX, we couldn't make toast AND coffee at the same time in the morning. But I think that just indicates that the amp hours in batteries is insufficient (do to the age of the batteries.) I don't know, I'm still learning. Open to suggestions, though.

My turbine is up at about 25 foot. Because I am so close to the top of a canyon wall, it's constantly moving. My neighbor is slightly lower in elevation than me, and his airx doesn't hardly move at all. I put mine on top of the pole that used to be the pole for my solar tracker. I mounted the tracker to the top of the roof.

Your stream, though, is a constant source of possible electricity (unless it is only seasonal.) It may not be a huge flow, but it could provide during those times when there is little wind and no sun.

Seems like I remember hearing about somebody using some big @ss batteries from a forklift for their solar home. :idea:

rreidnauer, what is the largest item you plan to power with your system at its current size? I really like the idea of a solar backup system for the lights/freezer type of loads, but don't think I can afford a system that would power a workshop with a few 2 to 5 hp 220v motors running, at least running for more than about 30 minutes.

I do plan to do some $$ saving things like put switches on the recepticles for the TV/stereo so they can easily be turned all the way off since they use so much electricity just sitting there waiting.

Neat stuff you are coming up with by the way. Are you an engineer?

Jeff

I'm guessing it would probably be the washer, perhaps shop tools. (though, I'll probably just run them on a generator during extended use) The only other considerable draws would be any pumps and fans for house utilities. I don't have (nor want) a big honkin' TV. A toaster really doesn't count since it's "on time" is so short. A dishwasher would be nice, but I'll probably pass on it. Hand washing isn't that big a deal. Really, I don't forsee much power demand.

Yea, anything electronic needs to be disconnected when not in use. This also applys to anything that uses those wall plug transformers, (wall warts) as they are big leaches of power.

I'm not an engineer of anything. Just a thorough reseacher and thinker. :D Mechanics come easy to me. It's people whom I can't figure out. :lol:

Continuing on sources of batteries, another place to look to is the telephone companies. Next time you see a service truck out there on the road working on a pole, pull over and start a conversation with the lineman. The phone company uses what are sometimes known as "jar cells" or "jar batteries" for certain components they use. They are large batteries, often made with a clear case so you can see the internals. They are only "single cell" batteries, meaning they only put out a bit over 2 volts but huge capacity, and with strings of 6 or 12 cells, can get you the required voltages needed. They are built to last, and are often will last 25+ years. . . . . . Anyhow, back to the lineman. Perhaps, with a case of ice cold beer, you might be able to get some information about where you could acquire these wonderful cells at affordable (maybe free) prices.

Batteries are the most neglected of all power systems. Most folks don't even think twice about them until they aren't doing what they are suppose to be doing, and by then, it's too late. So for dbtoo, and anyone wanting to know how to care for their battery banks, (actually, it's probably too late for you dbtoo) take a look at this page: http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_battery_care.html It's easy maintenance that will make your batteries last much, much longer.

Finding inverters that work like that might be tricky. See if you can find an inverter for 220v at your bank voltage.

To find out how much power the well will draw from the batteries, you need to know the amps the well draws. Take the amps and multiply by it's volts, then add 12% for inverter efficiency losses, (typ. pure sine wave inverter loss) and then divide by battery bank voltage to get amps drawn from the batteries.

Example: 6A x 220V = 1320 + 12% = 1478 / 12V = 123A

Not exactly correct that way, but close. In reality, it's 125A in that example.

When I can afford one, I will buy a portable generator to add to my menagerie.

Here's a link for a forum on solar energy.
http://www.wind-sun.com/smf/index.php

Sell the Tornado?!! Rod! Say it ain't so!!
Guy Truax flew the first Thundergull cross country.
The Tornado could easily do the same and we have
a long driveway. Plenty long for take offs and landings
when you decide to come and visit.

I understand your hesitance over diesel generators
but take a look at More Power to You by Skip Thomsen,
and also go to www.utterpower.com. I'm thinking I can
generate my own power for about 2 1/2 cents-Kw/h.
Of course that is with monoglycerides for start up and
shut down. The rest of the run time would be on tri-
glycerides. Ring hydrocabon fuels are just too expensive.
The good news is that I already have an 8Kw genset just
waiting to be installed.

A few years back I visited the sister of a friend. She and
her husband had built a house with a Russian stove sitting
right in the center of it. Uses very little wood and I was very
impressed. I plan to install one in our log house.

I grew up on the occasional use of the wood fired kitchen
stove. Loved waking to the smells of the coffee pot simmering
on the back of the stove, eggs and bacon frying, and the crackle
of cedar. You're right...just too hot to have inside in the summer.
I'm also looking into an outside kitchen area...maybe 16'x16'.
I just might want to cook with a 357 magnum handy. Bears,
badgers and racoons can become very agressive around food.
Don't underestimate those dang racoons. They are nothing
more than a cute badger! A few weeks ago one came after me.
I was able to get inside the car before he got to me. Only beat
him by a few feet! This wasn't even at the place we're building
out in the wood. This was at our present home right inside the
Wenatchee city limits! Cranky little things! Of course, there was
a reason he came after me, but that's a story along the lines of
the porta-potty and getting hit with 2 x 12 rafters. Trouble is
always out there, I just seem to entice it to come after me. :oops:

Looks like you've really thought this through. I'm thinking
you'll do well in meeting your off the grid goals. Hope you do well
with it and don't forget to pass on the information.

-Rick

Smoke signals for sure. :D
I'll be using satelite connection. The neighbors have it, and it works better then their cell phone!

Rick - I've seen trouble! And it DID have your name on it??? (How's Sue?)

You can at least get enough energy out of a small stream to satisfy your water pumping needs.. Check out the ram pump..

http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/ram_pump.htm

or just google "ram pump". I saw one of these working on a full-time Alaskan homestead on Thayer Lake, on Admiralty Island. It takes the momentum of the water and uses it to lift a smaller amount way up into a tank 30' up a tree. (He also had a water wheel-style hydro setup that supplied all his power. He tied in junked electric stove elements that kicked in to regulate the wheel speed.)

Greg

Not to bring up an older topic but, there is something you can purchase for your existing inverter that will let you push 220 through. I'm not sure what it is called but I will get back to the forum in a couple of days. I do remember it costs around 300 bucks. I too, use my propane generator for my well. I do not like to support those fuel kings that sell propane, I would like to use it only on my fridge, so it's important to me to get the water on solar. I have 2 panels and for my family of 6 we have plenty of power to run our computer, my shop, yes, I use a planer alot, among routers, band saws, compressors, nailers etc. We finished all of our flooring, cabinetry etc. Also, we took the plunge and have gotten satelite for the internet and use those confounded cell phones. Oh, Yeah, the pure sine wave issue... we do not have it, and there is an issue, it will not charge any of my craftsman cordless battery tools, blows the small fuse in the charger, however, it charges all my other cordless stuff, milwalkee, dewalt etc. and yes we unplug anything when not in use, we use the not less than 50% on the batteries rule (golf cart batteries) never let them get lower than 50% The whole family monitors the existing system, they think its fun! :lol:

What size panels are you using?
I just got rid of my old propane fridge. I went with an 'energy saving' model that uses less than 3 amps.
I've managed to cook my old batteries, I assume the wind turbine was 'overcharging'. In a pinch, I went and bought the deep cycle RV 12 volts. That's all that was available at the time.

For 220, you would need a step up transformer (I thought you were aerospace? Where in New York - I lived over near Millbrook / Poughkeepsie/Fishkill areas for 15 years.) I am considering buying the step up, but I was unsure on how much additional power they would suck out of my batteries while in use. In theory, it's just a 110v like any other drain on the system, but the amp draw could be significant. I have to look into that further.

Don't know if this is a 'good' price or not.

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/products.folder/inverter-folder/t240.html

First, just remember, log home magazines survive on their advertisers. Just because it's in the magazine, doesn't mean it's a good product. Always research first. As for the comment, "smart homeowners choose geothermal", no doubt voiced by a Waterfurnace.com representative, is quite frankly, a stupid comment. Geography and enviroment detemine where a system will work. For example, a geothermal heatpump, (that is what Waterfurnace.com is selling, though they evade to indicate that on their website) would function poorly, if at all, in Alaska. What I'm getting at is, the cooler the climate, the worse the performance.

This is my view of geothermal heatpumps, as copied from a thread from the member's section discussions:

In my continuing plans for off grid life, I've been hashing out a few more things. This time, I'm concentrating on water issues.

I think I settled on several components of my solar hot water system. I'm planning to use a pair ofAmerican Solar Works evacuated tube collectors for my domestic needs, instead of the flat plate collectors I had discussed buying/building at the beginning of this topic. The price is roughy the same as a 4x8 chromed flat plate collector, and even though the flat plate collecter has a 12.5% larger collection area, the evacuated tube model is able to generate twice the BTU's per square foot. So not only are evacuated tube systems more energy and cost efficient, they work even more effectively than flat plate collectors during hazy to cloudy weather. Anyhow, the company that selling them at the above link is out of California, but, the manufacturer is nearby in New Jersey. Hopefully, I can arrange to pick up a pair and avoid the prohibitive shipping charges. If I can't work out an agreement, I'll approach the factory directly and try my luck there.

Another thing I am planning on building, is the antifreeze to water heat exchanger, but I am considering buying this proven design instead, which appears pretty solid and efficient for the money. I can still build my own cheaper, but we'll see when I get there I guess.

I'll use a pair of El-SID solar direct circulator pumps on their own dedicated solar panel. At only 10 watts a piece, they will be well within the abilities of my surplus 50 watt panel I already have. The pumps will be controlled by the Art-Tec solar pump controller. This makes for a totally battery free system for making and storing hot water.

One last gadget I found was a wastewater heat reclaiming device that I'd tie into the second floor bathroom's drain. This would recover around 67% of the heat energy that would have otherwise gone down the shower drain. The price of this gadget is a little salty, at $700, but I priced the materials to make one myself, and I don't think I could do much better.

And the final water related issue, is water supply. Unless I get reaaaaallly lucky, and have a spring or artesian well, I got to think about a well pump. 220V pumps are a bit of a pain for off grid homes as mentioned earlier in this topic. 110V models may not cut it for deeper applications. Not to mention, if I got a bunch of non-energy producing days, I could be out of water, unless I had a generator at the ready. The solution I think I'll use is a Lorentz solar submersible pump. This is another device that uses a set of dedicated panels to pump at a slow rate, and fills a holding tank. It has a depth capability of 750 feet, making it ideal almost anyplace I may go. This is also a batteryless system, pumping only during the day, but is completely maintenance free. Pumping into a large holding tank would give me many days worth of water in the event of a long spell of energy productionless days. The only thing I'm still pondering is, I have to dedicate 3 or 4 of my 175 watt panels to the well, and there will be (probably plenty) of days when the tank will be filled, and the pump not needed, and the panels will just be sitting there not getting utilized for anything. That bugs me, and I was trying to figure out if I can use that energy some other way when the pump is sitting idle. Just one more thing to think about. I just hate to see 700 watts being wasted at times, but I like the idea of a totally maintenance free well.

Rod, once again great info. A person that posts on a woodworking forum I read works a lot with solar projects and is a big believer in open-source technology. He is currently working on a Stirling water pump.
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/StirlingProject.html

There might be some other ideas on his pages for you too.

Don't suppose you could put in a level switch in your storage tank, and have it kick a relay to switch the solar panels over to charging your batteries?

Jeff

I'm a bit perplexed about your statement Rick. 7.5kwh/day is very respectable. Heck, 1.6kw of solar, five hours a day (or a 350 watt hydro) could keep up with that. The only reason I could see needing to exceed the 3kw genset is if you are planning on drawing more than that at any given time.

Uhhhhhh, yea. That is bad news. I don't have any recommendation on how to resolve that one either. Maybe transplant all the trees to the North side of the property? :wink:

Well, Lorentz pumps are a lower voltage, but I'm not sure what they run at. Their specs do say a minimum of 72 volts, so I'd wager it's probably 48 volts. The motor controller is a clever item. It is a linear current boosting controller. It literally trades excess voltage to make amps, and constantly adjusts the balance to maintain peak performance. It's last trick is it converts that incoming DC to three phase AC current, and manipulates voltage and frequency to make the motor run as efficient as possible.

You got me thinking again. I could hook two sets of two in series/parallel, and I'd have a safe voltage (88v) to send back for battery charging., and still meet the demands of the pump's controller. Hmmmmm, interesting. I'd have to find some sort of latching relay so it wouldn't be drawing current. Perhaps a solid state relay would be best for minimum power waste.

OK, thanks Jeff. You got me thinking again. :D

Yea, The pump will work with just two in series, so I can hook it up with two sets of two, and avoid a set of switching relays to do the flip flop.
What I was scratching my head about was how I could use the float switch control circuit from the well motor controller to swap voltage to the battery bank when the pump isn't needed. Hmmm, isolation relay? Wonder how much voltage is on that control circuit leg? Maybe none! Hmmmm. Oh wait! Why bother using the float switch circuit at all? Just shunt the control circuit to run all the time, and wire it up like this:

I'll look for a single pole, double throw solid state relay. I don't think they use much power when "energized", and usually have a wide "coil" voltage range that might work directly off the panels. If not, I'll have to feed the float switch and relay "coil" from the battery bank.

~~~~~~FOLLOWUP EDIT~~~~~~

Hmmm, thinking further. If I can find a double throw floatswitch that can handle 10 amps DC, I can do away with a relay altogether! :D
The search is on.

Very nice illustrations. You might look for automotive switches, I just put a switch and relay in my truck to run a small air compressor, and the place I ordered the switch had DPDT ones also. You could add the appropriate connection to your float stick. If I can find the name of the company, I'll PM you.

Is there a chance that the float switch will activate the pump at night via "back" current from your battery bank, which probably would not use much electricity, but could still be an unexpected event? Or does your charger prevent that?

Jeff

How about a magnetic switch? I saw an ad for these LED lights you can put in your drawer. Just have it turn on your pump instead of a light.

http://www.ccrane.com/lights/light-accessories/inlight-led-light.aspx