Well, at least once I get property.
It's been a constant thought on my mind, and to become truely debt free, that means I must cut off the utilities too. (as monthly bills are just as bad as mortgages) The more independent I can become, the happier with everything I'll be.
I have been constantly pondering how to deal with the home utility systems.
Electric:
If you folks have been following my posts, you know I've been working on the electric problem with the construction of a wind generation tubine, and I am also up to 1.4 Kw of solar panels now. They will be fitted to a homebuilt tracker, to get up to 40% more power out of them. In addition, I have a special solar controller, that squeezes even more power out of the panels, by allowing me to connect higher voltage panels to lower voltage battery banks, then it converts the extra voltage into amperage. All the power will be dumped into a battery bank, then either used at the bank voltage, or used to power a couple inverters for 120 VAC thoughout the house.
Water:
Water will hopefully come from a well/spring, pumped by a low volume solar panel driven pump controlled with a current boost controller, to a large holding tank, and followed up with a boost pump for house pressure. Alternately, I may get lucky enough to do away with the boost pump if I can locate the holding tank far enough uphill to provide sufficient water column pressure. (like a water tower on the ground) A real bonus would be the luck of a natural spring about 100 feet (in elevation) uphill of the house, but I'm not holding my breath.
Hot Water:
I plan on either building or buying solar hot water panels to be mounted on the roof's Southern exposure. Also, any excess power from the solar and wind generators will be dumped into low voltage water heating elements.
Septic:
Just a standard holding tank, with a gravity fed leaching field. Nothing special here, except it's a gravity system, instead of a pump tank.
Air Conditioning:
This one I had pretty much written off when I decided to go off-grid, but now I've reconsidered. I think I'll build an earth-tube cooling system. It requires only a fan to operate, and a series of 4" thinwall pvc drainpipe is buried in the ground. Legionnaires' disease is a concern for such systems, but after some research, I found the trick to preventing the bacteria is in the design layout, namely, to pitch the pipes to drain so no water pools in the pipes. I also learned a lot of misconceptions and common design errors . Turns out, the most efficient way to build is also probably the least expensive.
On a side note, I was considering a radical air conditioning system, by building a solar absorption ice maker, and going a step further by outfitting the ice collector box with a heat exchanger (car radiator) in the bottom, and pumping non-toxic antifreeze to/from the house, to another heat exchanger, fitted with a fan. I dismissed the idea, when I found that ice probably doesn't contain much BTU value, perhaps 2000 BTU, enough for a very small room, and the ice maker only makes ice at night, unless human intervention is employed. Even then, you would probably only get two cycles of ice per day. It also requires a larger solar collector to work.
Heating:
I will install two systems. Domestic hot water baseboard, fed by the hotwater systems above. Hopefully I can figure out a thermosiphoning system to avoid pumping. And, of course, back up with a couple of woodstoves.
Lighting:
Generally, all compact flouresent lamps. The manufacturers finally figured out how to make nice light very comparable to regular incandescent light bulbs, at only 25% the power for equal lumens. In fact, they are what I'm already using now. Only the slight delay before lighting when the switch is turned on, is the only way to tell the difference.
Appliances:
The refrigerator is an easy one. I'll salvage the propane one from my travel trailer I'll be living in while building. They use very little propane. Of course, I could build that solar ice maker and have an old ice box. That would do away with buying propane for that. Actually, it's a three way. LP/12v/120v but I'm not sure how much wattage it uses, perhaps 150-200 watts maybe?
The stove . . . . . . sigh . . . . . . yea, I don't know, probably propane, but I hate the idea of using such. I really like the old wood fired cook stoves, but they are a lot of work and just terrible to use in the summer. Perhaps an outdoor "summer kitchen" would be in order. Solar cooker perhaps?
I don't know what I want to do for a washer. This is the one appliance that won't work, if I go with the more efficient, and less costly electrical inverters. I guess I could do the old washboard and ringer thing, eh? . . . . . . nah! I wonder if there are any 24 volt models out there. I guess I could run a generator (gasp) while washing laundry. (definitely don't like that idea)
The dryer, of course, will be a piece of rope. :wink:
So, anyhow, that's been my thinking. Now, if I could only sell my plane, I can get moving forward on my dreams.
Comments
Rod, water tank with a bladder... and the laundromat!
Mon, 2008-04-14 18:49
Hi Rod,
I love that you have done so much research on the off-grid power! I lived that way for 8 years. The system is still intact, has been upgraded once or twice, was set up in 1989. It has been strictly solar, and served the home very well. What I wanted to share with you is that we put in a water tank with a 29 gallon "bladder" in it. This tank only runs the power when it needs to fill the bladder. That way your pump doesn't run every time you use the water. We tried to make sure water usage was timed so there was a good power influx when we knew the pump might run, ie showers etc. Recently the advice was also to change the brushes on the water pump every five years which will keep them using the least amount of power.
The washer??? Well....... the laundromat. It solved that power problem. The fridge.... was electric/propane and lasted 18 years. It is just being replaced this year. We weren't purists, we used wood for heat, and had a back-up of a gas-on-gas heating/cooking stove. Consolidated Dutch West (Vermont Castings) wood stove with a catalytic combuster (we could burn green wood, softwoods and hard woods). For a while the insurance companies would not insure the place because it didn't have a traditional heating system! But eventually they rethought the idea. We had a good generator that we used when we needed to fill-in, and never felt guilt for either the propane or the gas for the generator. We were off grid, and the home still is. It was worth the little bit of "other" that we chose to use, or had ready for back-up. Deep-cell marine battery bank, no A/C... fans! and strategically placed deciduous trees. I don't remember where you are building, but this home is in Vermont. It is a different lifestyle, but it is an awesome feeling!!! It's worth every "sacrifice" because eventually... it doesn't feel like a sacrifice! And yes, build something to keep the hum away from the main house! We kept our battery bank warm by putting it in the house but the rest of the electronics were in the attached unheated shed. The ex still lives there comfortably and is looking into adding wind power to the system! Good luck! Hope some of this helps you or others. Most of all... ENJOY!!!!!!!! I hope to be off-grid again soon myself.
Re: /\/\/\/\/\ LIGHT SHOW /\//\/\/\
:lol: Rod if you decide to try this let me know and I'm gonna go outside and see if I can see the glow from across the state.
Hey, Rod. What do you think
I know this is an old thread but it seemed like the best place for this.
I've been doing a lot of research lately on off-grid design. I figure I can cover all the electrical loads that I need with a combination of solar and hydro (if my hydro site plans work out). All the big loads (oven, dryer, etc) will be gas. The only problem I have is A/C. In an area where 100 degrees and high humidity is common, in summer, I really don't want to go without one.
I got excited when I started reading about residential, water fired absorption chillers. I've seen these units, in commercial applications, using waste heat from various industrial processes but this is the first time I've ever seen a residential size unit. Submarines used to use lithium bromide chillers and I can tell you they were plenty cold...brrr!
I like the idea of using solar heated water to run an absorption chiller. I'm just not sure how well it will work. I know, if you read the manufacturer and/or salesman's web sites, you get the idea that they will cool a 5,000 sf house down to 30 degrees with just a little bit of sunlight :)
Has anyone seen one of these in operation?
Another concern is night time operation. I'll have to do the math but I thought about using a large storage tank to supply hot water to the unit at night.
Here's a link to one model I found. http://www.yazakienergy.com/waterfired.htm
All thoughts and comments are welcome. Especially you, Rod.
Off grid AC is tough, but . . . .
. . . . this might be a possibility. This is truly a heatpump if I ever seen one. But keep in mind, nothing is free when it comes to energy. OK, first thing I see is four circulator pumps, some of which have pretty high GPM requirements. And that means higher power requirements. Also, two fans, and the indoor blower I know will be pretty power hungry. Now, their specs say 210 watts, but that can't possibly be for all those loads, could it? I think that would need to be confirmed.
Next thing, the chilled water to the water-to-air heat exchanger is 44 to 51 F. This is significantly higher than a compressed refrigerant system, so it will require longer run times to achieve the same cooling results, BUT they say their small unit is 10 tons cooling (120,000 BTU per hr.!!!) so that's going to be quite a bit of cooling. (A typ home usually only requires 2.5~4 tons)
Finally is the design electrical requirements. 208 volt, 3 phase. Not exactly something you find in an off-grid home, (or any home for that matter) but probably not impossible to have a transformer/inverter to get that. (but with some more wattage losses)
OK, solar hot water for the system. While this is one of the cheapest ways to collect solar energy, I'm afraid it's simply not the best way to get the amount of hot water required. "A little bit of sunlight" is gonna be a lot more than you might think. Let's take a look. Their specs say they need 171,000 BTU/hr of hot water. The most efficient solar hot water collectors are only going to be able to provide maybe 1,000 BTU/hr per panel. Now, an outdoor wood boiler can get it done, and do so 24/7.
I'd really love to see one of these in operation, along with the real life energy requirements.
Off grid AC is tough.
How about this Rod
Rod I've got a half baked idea that I am trying to chase down the details on in my head but I think I am on to something. My idea was for a masonry heater with a water fall built into it for looks AND to heat and cool depending on the season. You size and build two tanks under your house and insulate one of them. The insulated one holds solar heated hot water in the winter and that warm water is pumped to the waterfall to help heat the masonry heaters mass. In the summer time you flip a valve and pump water from the uninsulated tank that has been cooled by the surrounding ground to the waterfall and it cools the masonry mass. Maybe a fan blowing across it to help circulate the chilled air? Around here ground temp is 54 or 55 degrees. You're the master of the BTU math, would a system like that be able to provide significant cooling effect in the summer?
A waterfall built into the
A waterfall built into the masonry of your fireplace? Hmmm, that would be an unusual feature. Alright, let me think this through. First, let's talk BTU's. A BTU is the equivalent of raising (or lowering) one pound of water by one degree. And a gallon of water is 8.3 pounds. So, how much water you want to store? Let's say 1000 gallons just to make this easier. That is 8,300 pounds of water. Now, how hot is our water going to be? A good target for solar hot water, is to get it hot as possible without boiling it, so 210 degrees would be great. Probably getting to 180 would be more realistic. Alright, now, how much energy do we got to work with? If we used that water to extract all it's usable heat (to room temperature, where no further air heating can occur) that is a 110 degree drop, multiplied by 8,300 pounds, equals 913,000 BTU's. Pretty darn respectable, eh? But in reality, we'll never squeeze all that out of it. It's simply not efficient as the water gets closer to room temperature. So let's say we pump the water until it's down to 120, a 60 degree drop. Again multiplied by our water weight, that's just a smidge below 500,000 BTU's. That's still a lot of energy. But that's total energy, not per hour or per day, just per batch.
OK, so this sounds really good, so I guess this is where I say "but."
But (see) now let's look at the logistics. If we take 500K BTU's, we got to put it back if we wish to use it again the following day. Remember what I said earlier about the output's of solar collectors? About 1000 BTU per hour per panel is what you can expect on a good day, so you're looking at 500 hours to recharge. But we likely will not use all 500K of BTU's so we only need to replace what is used. (an average home can probably get by on 180,000 to 200,000 BTU per day) Still, that's 180-200 hours of solar recharging for a single panel. Add more panels and divide by the number of panels. 35 evacuated tube panels could probably get it done. But since you were talking supplemental only, so there is no need to bonkers on panels.
Next problem. I don't know about you, but when I take a shower, it's probably right around 105F. I can also tell you things get pretty darn steamy, and everything is condensated with moisture. Now, would you really want a waterfall with water temps close to twice that of a shower running in your house? I'm not so sure that would be a good plan. Quoting the words of Cosmo Kramer, "It's like a sauna in here." You would probably make much better use of pumping that hot water through Pex tubing, either in your masonry, or better yet, under your floors. Another challenge will be properly insulating 1000 gallons to prevent BTU loss to ground.
Now for the dreaded cooling aspect. The coolest your water is likely to get in an underground tank is probably around 50F. If you are using that to cool 80F room temps, that is only a 30 degree spread, and in reality, effective water use probably isn't going to work well within 15 degrees of house ambient, so 15 degrees times 8,300 pounds is 124,500 BTU available. Once you use it up, it's going to take a long time for the earth to pull it back down again. Now, back to the waterfall. You are real close to describing something called a swamp cooler, with the only difference being, a swamp cooler uses an open weave fabric like burlap to trickle the water across it, fan blowing through the burlap to evaporate the water, which causes evaporative cooling. There's only one problem. It will only work if the humidity is low enough to allow evaporation. I don't know if pouring water across the masonry will do much more than cool the masonry itself, and do little to cool the air in the room. Once again, it would be better to run the water through an exchanger, like a car radiator, with a fan, but even then I wouldn't expect spectacular results, maybe enough for one or two rooms. And like i said, once you've warmed the water it's going to take a while to recover. Perhaps the Solar ammonia-water absorption ice maker could help get that water temp back down. (not really, it only makes about 500~700 BTU's per day)
I hate to always sound like a stick in the mud, but cooling is one of the most difficult things to get done.
You're the man Rod!
LOL...Rod you must be an otherpower regular. I never really thought about the humidity factor of the heat that much. I have no experience with a masonry heater other than what I have read but doesn't the stone on the outer layer stay cool enough to touch? Couldn't blend water from the two tanks to keep the water temp. down to less than sauna level? Probably a much better idea would be a temp. controlled valve on the solar system to keep your water temp. down. Over several days wouldn't that warm the stone enough to give you the same effect as firing the heater? If the water wasn't quite warm enough you could always fire the heater and warm up the rest of the masonry mass. A swamp cooler was exactly what I was thinking of when I was talking about the cooling side. If your stones that the water fell across were uneven it would help aeriate the water and with a fan blowing across it to cool was what I was visualizing. Even if it would work in some parts of the country it would never work here in Kentucky because we have high humidity. I still think it'd be cool as hell to have a big stone wall waterfall/masonry heater in a log house though. LOL Oh yeah, I almost forgot another feature I want in it, with the back part of it forming the steps up to the second floor.
I use to visit Otherpower
I use to visit Otherpower regularly, but then some of the long time regulars started getting a bit more obnoxious to others, and that bothered me enough that I no longer continued to visit. I only check in once in a while to see if the pictures of the cordwood sauna ever get posted, as Kola asked me to post once available.
I'm not sure how hot the surface of a masonry heater gets, but I'd imagine it would depend a lot on it's size and construction. My guess is the surface wouldn't be so hot that you couldn't keep your hand on it. So OK, you want to run water across the surface at roughly the same temperature as the surface would be from a fire burn, just to maintain a temperature. I guess it could be done, perhaps 110F maybe? I still think that would cause condensation in the house. How about just a bit above ambient room temperature to only extend the heat release time, say 85F. That may limit the humidity but extend the heating time. I know your goal is the water feature, but a closed system is still the best way to achieve your goal.
About the tempering valve. For domestic solar hot water, a tempering valve is mandatory due to the very high temperatures of the holding tank. Without it, risks of burns are too high. For heating though, the idea is to use the hottest water you can, as the larger the temperature difference between the air and water, the more effective the heating.
For cooling, I think you're out of luck. I just don't believe you'll get a noticeable cooling transfer to air. But hey, the only thing you loose is that, and you'll still have your waterfall!!!
I love the idea of building the stairs directly into the structure. That would be good use of mass that would otherwise just be using up floorspace. Very cool.
Latest component added to my RE stockpile
Well, I just dropped $1300 on two evacuated tube solar hot water collectors tonight. It's a bit of a funny story, well, maybe not funny, but perhaps one of fate?
About a year and a half ago, after shopping around for these collectors, I found a good price ($755 ea.) from a place out in California, but shipping would have made it a not-so-good deal. After researching the manufacturer of these panels, I found they were right over in New Jersey! I was considering purchasing through the CA company, with the understanding that I'd go to the factory to pick them up and not have to pay shipping. Not being high on my list of things to buy, simply because it's more cr@p I got to haul when I have to move, I've been dragging my feet. Well, a couple weeks ago, I see a Craigslist ad for solar thermal collectors - $650. I emailed them asking, are they new, how many you got, yada yada. Here it turns out, it's the very manufacturer of the panels I've had my eyes on, who's selling them! Wow, I think fate is telling me something. OK done deal.
I asked him why they move so much. (I noticed three moves since I discovered them) He said the first place I knew of, they got flooded out after being specifically told by the realtor that the place NEVER floods. Well, it did, 4 1/2 feet of water, and he lost his entire stock, since he carried no flood insurance. OK, who cares, right? Well, this was the nice benefit of that happening. He couldn't sell the glass tubes as new since they were flooded, only as reconditioned after cleaning up each one. He threw in an extra box (10 tubes) for free, in case I ever break any! SWEET! Really, there's nothing that can go bad if submersed other than maybe an easy cleaning of dirt and maybe some stuck on cardboard. It was a golden deal I couldn't pass up.
Lastly, he said his buisiness has been going for 2 1/2 years now, and can't make enough with it to support him, and was looking forward to state funding of renewable resources. He also said that he's always looking for distributors and offered me the opportunity to become one without upfront cost. (no requirement to maintain stock) I didn't really hash out the details, as I'm not really in a position to make that leap right now, but I told him I would keep it in mind and put some thought into it. It'd be tough to make a living on sales alone, but sales, installation, and repair, maybe there could be a future of self employment, who knows. As energy costs continue to climb and payback periods shorten, more and more people are going to seek this type of technology. I just wouldn't want to find myself caught between the customer and the manufacturer if there would be some sort of defect in the product. It's a lot to contemplate.
used solar tubes
I can't remember where I found this link.
http://www.fossilfreedom.com/products.html
Off grid AC
Thanks for the detailed analysis, Rod. I'm with you, I'd like to see one of these in operation. I think you're right about the actual power requirements (both electrical and heat). It almost sounds too good to be true. I also have a feeling that these systems would be prohibitively expensive.
As you can see, I'm researching just about everything I can find. I really want to be off grid when I build. Not because it's too expensive to run the line or because I think I need to save the earth. I just don't like being dependant upon someone else for my power. And if I'm not on the grid then that power is freed up for someone else who is unable to develop an off grid system.
After reading one of your previous posts, I'm starting to lean toward an earth tube system. Ground temperature in my area is about 60 degrees and I have plenty of room for the pipes.
Thanks again.
/\/\/\/\/\ LIGHT SHOW /\//\/\/\
Boy, speaking of DC arcing, I got a show I didn't expect today. I just picked up the last load of the solar panels, and was testing their outputs. I was using a multimeter to test voltage and amperage. With the panels rated at an open voltage of 44V and a maximum of 5A, I began my tests. Set to DC volts, I got an average reading of 46.5V (as expected, a bit high, but it was quite cold, and PV panels always run higher voltages the colder they are) then I disconnected the leads from the panel, switched the leads and selector on the multimeter to read amps, and connected back onto the panel, with what basically amounts to a dead short to the panel (it's OK to do that) a snap of electric is heard, and I get my reading. Hmmm, a little low, around 3.5 to 4, but the sun was pretty low and a bit of haze, so OK.
I did this proceedure with each panel, but one really got my attention. When testing for amps, I didn't have the lead contacting the panel connector well. Well, there was the hiss of a MIG welder when you got a real smooth bead going, and that bluish-purple plasma arc at the end of my test lead. It was probably only for a half second before I pulled the lead away, but the power was evident. The plastic tip of the panel's connector showed signs of melting and the test lead has a sizable pit burned into it!
Dang! No damage was done to the panel's connector, but it did amaze me what a little bit of sun can do. It's also a good example of what I mean about DC arcs. I could just about weld with these things. (hmm, if I chain all 12 together, I could get 528 volts and around 5 amps . . . . . . . nahh!) :lol:
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
That's got some real potential (pun intended). Good job. I am surprised that a version of this is not easy to find commercially.
Jeff
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
Yea, magnetic actuation could be used, but it doesn't solve the issue of handling high voltage DC. Unlike AC, DC will generate an arc across a set of opening contacts. The higher the voltage, the bigger the arc. If the contacts don't open far enough, it will litterally maintain the arc until the contacts are fried and the surrounding insulating material is burnt or molten. Even if the arc gets extinguished in a 1/2 or even 1/4 second, it will still burn and pit the contacts, and eventually they will fail to close. (electrically)
OK, so here's my latest thought:
The only things not shown in the drawing, is the arm to be operated by the float, and the stops to prevent over-rotation. The detent will hold the switch in one position until enough force is applied by the float (either by rising water pushing harder as more water rises over it, or as water falls away from the float and more weight is transfered to the switch) to force a rapid switch to the other position. The reason I'm planning four point contacts is, it keeps all the electrical connections stationary, and less prone to fail. I should be able to make the whole thing on a simple drill press.
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
How about a magnetic switch? I saw an ad for these LED lights you can put in your drawer. Just have it turn on your pump instead of a light.
http://www.ccrane.com/lights/light-accessories/inlight-led-light.aspx
Hey Rod...
Hey Rod,
I'm looking for some specific input on crunching some numbers for my future home. In particular, I'm wondering how much an off-grid system that supports my lifestyle might cost me, so I can have a dollar figure in mind when I consider the lower prices of some off-grid properties.
Would you mind sending me an email at klapton AT rcn DOT com please?
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
You're correct on the second part. The charge controller would prevent backfeeding. I haven't found any automotive/marine switches which handle 88VDC yet. Still looking.
~~~~~~~~ANOTHER FOLLOWUP EDIT~~~~~~~~
Hmmmmm, the more I look around, the more I think I can build the switch itself, better than anything I can find commercially. There's only three primary concerns that have to be met.
1. Capable of handling the required amps 2. Fast acting snap action (a partial solution to #3)
I think I can make this quite easily, and meet all those requirements. I'm thinking about a type of switch that can withstand millions of cycles with little problem, ya know? Just like the ones in ever permanent magnet DC motors we call brushes and commutators! My thinking is to make a rotating or sliding switch, using some motor brushes and brass/copper contacts, built in a thermoplastic body, and a spring and detent system to make it snap action. This will3. Ability to overcome the arc when switching (main challenge of switching high voltage DC)
4. Maintain clean contacts (a problem related to #3)
1. ensure current carrying capacity 2. open the contacts quickly to avoid arcing
[/][/]3. open far enough, and shield contacts to ensure no arc can be maintained
4. sliding contacts will ensure they remain clean
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
Very nice illustrations. You might look for automotive switches, I just put a switch and relay in my truck to run a small air compressor, and the place I ordered the switch had DPDT ones also. You could add the appropriate connection to your float stick. If I can find the name of the company, I'll PM you.
Is there a chance that the float switch will activate the pump at night via "back" current from your battery bank, which probably would not use much electricity, but could still be an unexpected event? Or does your charger prevent that?
Jeff
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
Conitinuing the thought process, double throw float switches seem to be an unlikely find, based on recent web searches. But, I got another idea, and I like it even better, because it allows for easy servicing. Based on a sump pump control system, I'm thinking something like the drawing below. I'm much more likely to find a DC rated double throw switch. Heck, I could probably get away with a quality household three-way switch. (the ones that "Snap" when you switch them) If I put some small capacitors across the terminals, it should keep the arcing to a minimum.
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
Yea, The pump will work with just two in series, so I can hook it up with two sets of two, and avoid a set of switching relays to do the flip flop.
What I was scratching my head about was how I could use the float switch control circuit from the well motor controller to swap voltage to the battery bank when the pump isn't needed. Hmmm, isolation relay? Wonder how much voltage is on that control circuit leg? Maybe none! Hmmmm. Oh wait! Why bother using the float switch circuit at all? Just shunt the control circuit to run all the time, and wire it up like this:
I'll look for a single pole, double throw solid state relay. I don't think they use much power when "energized", and usually have a wide "coil" voltage range that might work directly off the panels. If not, I'll have to feed the float switch and relay "coil" from the battery bank.
~~~~~~FOLLOWUP EDIT~~~~~~
Hmmm, thinking further. If I can find a double throw floatswitch that can handle 10 amps DC, I can do away with a relay altogether! :D
The search is on.
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
I was thinking the same thing, if your panels are not bolted together, but connected with a wire, you could perhaps use several relays to alter the series/parallel outputs depending on which side of the relay was energized and how you tied the wires together after the relay.
I'd have to start drawing schematics to iron out details. Keep us posted.
Jeff
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
Well, Lorentz pumps are a lower voltage, but I'm not sure what they run at. Their specs do say a minimum of 72 volts, so I'd wager it's probably 48 volts. The motor controller is a clever item. It is a linear current boosting controller. It literally trades excess voltage to make amps, and constantly adjusts the balance to maintain peak performance. It's last trick is it converts that incoming DC to three phase AC current, and manipulates voltage and frequency to make the motor run as efficient as possible.
You got me thinking again. I could hook two sets of two in series/parallel, and I'd have a safe voltage (88v) to send back for battery charging., and still meet the demands of the pump's controller. Hmmmmm, interesting. I'd have to find some sort of latching relay so it wouldn't be drawing current. Perhaps a solid state relay would be best for minimum power waste.
OK, thanks Jeff. You got me thinking again. :D
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
Ah, I was thinking the pump would be a lower voltage but very high amperage, so your panels would be parallel. That could be a tricky amount of DC power to work around. A little different than touching the poles on a car battery. :!:
Re: So, I've pretty well decided to go off grid
I'm a bit perplexed about your statement Rick. 7.5kwh/day is very respectable. Heck, 1.6kw of solar, five hours a day (or a 350 watt hydro) could keep up with that. The only reason I could see needing to exceed the 3kw genset is if you are planning on drawing more than that at any given time.
Uhhhhhh, yea. That is bad news. I don't have any recommendation on how to resolve that one either. Maybe transplant all the trees to the North side of the property? :wink:
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
That's exactly the kind of thinking I like Jeff. The only trick is, four panels will be wired up in series, giving them an open circuit voltage of 176VDC!!!! Even my expensive Outback brand charger can't handle that much. (max's out at 140 volts) I'm thinking about maybe redirecting the power to do additional water heating instead.
Safety lesson of the day: folks that are naive about PV systems should know, these things got plenty of power to easily kill you. 176 volt of direct current at 5 amps! Yep, you wouldn't stand a chance.
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
Rod, once again great info. A person that posts on a woodworking forum I read works a lot with solar projects and is a big believer in open-source technology. He is currently working on a Stirling water pump.
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/StirlingProject.html
There might be some other ideas on his pages for you too.
Don't suppose you could put in a level switch in your storage tank, and have it kick a relay to switch the solar panels over to charging your batteries?
Jeff
So, I've pretty well decided to go off grid
Wow Rod, looks like you've done your homework! Some of those
links may be useful to me. I've been cleaning out my desk and
came across some old records, and rates. Looks like I'll need to
abandon the 3KW gen head and go with the 5 Kw unit. More bad
news...looks like I'm now up to about 7 1/2 Kw/ day for the winter.
Much more than I had planned on consuming.
The good news about my property is that I have plenty of sunlight,
and the PV panels only need to be eighty feet away. The bad news
is that's eighty feet straight up! Lotsa tall trees. Keep posting your
progress, it helps a lot.
-Rick
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
In my continuing plans for off grid life, I've been hashing out a few more things. This time, I'm concentrating on water issues.
I think I settled on several components of my solar hot water system. I'm planning to use a pair ofAmerican Solar Works evacuated tube collectors for my domestic needs, instead of the flat plate collectors I had discussed buying/building at the beginning of this topic. The price is roughy the same as a 4x8 chromed flat plate collector, and even though the flat plate collecter has a 12.5% larger collection area, the evacuated tube model is able to generate twice the BTU's per square foot. So not only are evacuated tube systems more energy and cost efficient, they work even more effectively than flat plate collectors during hazy to cloudy weather. Anyhow, the company that selling them at the above link is out of California, but, the manufacturer is nearby in New Jersey. Hopefully, I can arrange to pick up a pair and avoid the prohibitive shipping charges. If I can't work out an agreement, I'll approach the factory directly and try my luck there.
Another thing I am planning on building, is the antifreeze to water heat exchanger, but I am considering buying this proven design instead, which appears pretty solid and efficient for the money. I can still build my own cheaper, but we'll see when I get there I guess.
I'll use a pair of El-SID solar direct circulator pumps on their own dedicated solar panel. At only 10 watts a piece, they will be well within the abilities of my surplus 50 watt panel I already have. The pumps will be controlled by the Art-Tec solar pump controller. This makes for a totally battery free system for making and storing hot water.
One last gadget I found was a wastewater heat reclaiming device that I'd tie into the second floor bathroom's drain. This would recover around 67% of the heat energy that would have otherwise gone down the shower drain. The price of this gadget is a little salty, at $700, but I priced the materials to make one myself, and I don't think I could do much better.
And the final water related issue, is water supply. Unless I get reaaaaallly lucky, and have a spring or artesian well, I got to think about a well pump. 220V pumps are a bit of a pain for off grid homes as mentioned earlier in this topic. 110V models may not cut it for deeper applications. Not to mention, if I got a bunch of non-energy producing days, I could be out of water, unless I had a generator at the ready. The solution I think I'll use is a Lorentz solar submersible pump. This is another device that uses a set of dedicated panels to pump at a slow rate, and fills a holding tank. It has a depth capability of 750 feet, making it ideal almost anyplace I may go. This is also a batteryless system, pumping only during the day, but is completely maintenance free. Pumping into a large holding tank would give me many days worth of water in the event of a long spell of energy productionless days. The only thing I'm still pondering is, I have to dedicate 3 or 4 of my 175 watt panels to the well, and there will be (probably plenty) of days when the tank will be filled, and the pump not needed, and the panels will just be sitting there not getting utilized for anything. That bugs me, and I was trying to figure out if I can use that energy some other way when the pump is sitting idle. Just one more thing to think about. I just hate to see 700 watts being wasted at times, but I like the idea of a totally maintenance free well.
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
Hi Pizzaguy,
Several of those links have been discussed indepth in the members section.
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
I am about to check it out, but there's an add in the magazine that says "smart homeowners choose geothermal. The product is called WaterFurnace, and you can find it here at, waterfurnace.com.
First, just remember, log home magazines survive on their advertisers. Just because it's in the magazine, doesn't mean it's a good product. Always research first. As for the comment, "smart homeowners choose geothermal", no doubt voiced by a Waterfurnace.com representative, is quite frankly, a stupid comment. Geography and enviroment detemine where a system will work. For example, a geothermal heatpump, (that is what Waterfurnace.com is selling, though they evade to indicate that on their website) would function poorly, if at all, in Alaska. What I'm getting at is, the cooler the climate, the worse the performance.
This is my view of geothermal heatpumps, as copied from a thread from the member's section discussions:
The thing to remember about geothermal heatpumps is, they are still compressor driven, refrigerent based air conditioners. The only difference is, they increase their efficiency slightly by using the "relative" cool of the ground to cool the condenser coils via a water-to-refrigerent heat exchanger. And to warm, they essentially run in reverse, using the "relative" warm ground to warm the evaporator coils through the heat exchanger. By relative, I mean in comparison to the outside air temperature that a normal heat pump would have to use for it's operation.
Many people I've talked to don't realize that geothermal still means you got a year round air conditioner running. And 365 days of running that compressor isn't what I'd call a great breakthough in technology. The impression most folks get is, they pump cool water out of the ground and it cools your house.
The geothermal unit I installed, I wasn't impressed with. In the summer they worked just fine for cooling, but in the winter, well, that was a different story. It would be running nearly constantly, and the air temperature that came from the vents was quite cool to the touch. I'd imagine it would take a very long time to make a major temperature change. (say perhaps a 5 degree rise) On another note, the one we put in was a "open loop" version, which drew water from a well, ran it through the heat exchanger, and dumped it. Not what I'd call enviromentally responsible, but that was what the homeowner wanted, and since I wasn't the boss on the job, it wasn't my place to say "no." Closed loop is the only way to go, in my opinion, if at all.
Basically, I think heatpumps, either air exchange or geothermal, should only be utilized in areas where climates remain fairly mild, and only require heating operations on a minimal basis. Granted, with the cost of fuel running up out of control, running a heatpump 24/7 probably will always be cheaper, but it's still not the greatest thing going.
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
Sat, 2006-11-25 23:46
I think it's time to tear apart the exercycle and hook up an alternator to the wheel. Better yet. Get the kids on the bike while you relax.....
Ok. I've finished reading the entire thread and ready to add my productive 2 cents. To do this I had to walk down a flight of stairs and grab my Log Home Living Magazine, which I got for free over the internet for filling out a form and answering a few questions.
I am about to check it out, but there's an add in the magazine that says "smart homeowners choose geothermal. The product is called WaterFurnace, and you can find it here at, waterfurnace.com.
For the free magazines, you'll have to stumble on them as I did. SO far I've gotten two for just a few minutes of my time. I hope I get the next issue.
Radient flooring at warmboard.com to heat your home
Radiant Heat at radiantec.com
Wholesale logs and lumber
cvzoom.net/~wloglumb
pointlogs.com
wildcatwood.com
Hochstetler Milling Only phone listed. Maybe they have a website....
LogHomeTV.com If you like this old house, you may enoy watching this one too.
I may be lucky not to have any kids, and the only reason I like the idea of being off grid is to get away from the city, I mean the CHicago Police. It's not that I don;t like the city, It just seems that if I am living on 35 acres and walk onto the porch to breathe in the smog free air, I would be happier.
That's about all I can add. And sorry for all the ads, but usually that's how we learn about a new idea that may be copied without too much hassle. Radient flooring seems to be one of those things, I might be able to figure out. All it takes it hot water and some flexible tubing to carry it.[/b]
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
Don't know if this is a 'good' price or not.
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/products.folder/inverter-folder/t240.html
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
I have a one 160w panel and a 170w panel. Each can pull in about 4.5 amps. A step up transformer, that's the name of it (thanks!) The drain on the batteries could be an issue, but the storage tank idea is a possible relief for the pump running all the time. But, as you know, housing the storage take to keep from freezing could open up more "situations". We bought a servel fridge, we like it. When we were researching refridgerators, we saw that some of the newer super energy saving models were fairly comparable, we just didn't want the almost constant drain on batteries. Sorry about the cooked batteries, that sure takes a bite out of the pocket, but deep cycles are better than golf cart batteries! Yes, I was an aerospace machinist/military blueprint interpreter for 15 years. I decided to give it up for a simpler life, be with my family(using an outhouse?!) Created a self-owned Handyman business, repairs, restoration, painting ect. We live in Chenango co. N.Y. Just outside of Norwich. I've seen Poughkeepsie on the map, never been there though. If you ever find out about the step-up transformer, let us know, I'll do some investigating here.
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
What size panels are you using?
I just got rid of my old propane fridge. I went with an 'energy saving' model that uses less than 3 amps.
I've managed to cook my old batteries, I assume the wind turbine was 'overcharging'. In a pinch, I went and bought the deep cycle RV 12 volts. That's all that was available at the time.
For 220, you would need a step up transformer (I thought you were aerospace? Where in New York - I lived over near Millbrook / Poughkeepsie/Fishkill areas for 15 years.) I am considering buying the step up, but I was unsure on how much additional power they would suck out of my batteries while in use. In theory, it's just a 110v like any other drain on the system, but the amp draw could be significant. I have to look into that further.
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
I forgot, we like the fact that there is not one sound in the home when we are sleeping (no electronics) except for the occasional snoring! We built a seperate insulated battery/solar shed so that the batteries, and the sound of the inverter buzzing were away from home.
220 through inverter
Not to bring up an older topic but, there is something you can purchase for your existing inverter that will let you push 220 through. I'm not sure what it is called but I will get back to the forum in a couple of days. I do remember it costs around 300 bucks. I too, use my propane generator for my well. I do not like to support those fuel kings that sell propane, I would like to use it only on my fridge, so it's important to me to get the water on solar. I have 2 panels and for my family of 6 we have plenty of power to run our computer, my shop, yes, I use a planer alot, among routers, band saws, compressors, nailers etc. We finished all of our flooring, cabinetry etc. Also, we took the plunge and have gotten satelite for the internet and use those confounded cell phones. Oh, Yeah, the pure sine wave issue... we do not have it, and there is an issue, it will not charge any of my craftsman cordless battery tools, blows the small fuse in the charger, however, it charges all my other cordless stuff, milwalkee, dewalt etc. and yes we unplug anything when not in use, we use the not less than 50% on the batteries rule (golf cart batteries) never let them get lower than 50% The whole family monitors the existing system, they think its fun! :lol:
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
Hi rreidnauer,
Thought I'd send you something that might help you in your quest to live off the grid. :D I found this in the latest issue of Mother Earth News magazine. :) Way in the back with all the other adds, under stoves. :( But this old style cooking wood stove is not only for cooking but for heating up to a 2000 square ft. house, and heating your water as well. :o It is made with a copper tubing that runs through the stove and back to a type of hot water tank. :shock: I'll see if I can find the web page for you. :?
My wife and I are thinking about living off the grid too 8) . But I'm like you, need to find a suitable piece of property. :lol: Maybe we're being too picky. :x
Good Luck,
Craig
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
You can at least get enough energy out of a small stream to satisfy your water pumping needs.. Check out the ram pump..
http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/ram_pump.htm
or just google "ram pump". I saw one of these working on a full-time Alaskan homestead on Thayer Lake, on Admiralty Island. It takes the momentum of the water and uses it to lift a smaller amount way up into a tank 30' up a tree. (He also had a water wheel-style hydro setup that supplied all his power. He tied in junked electric stove elements that kicked in to regulate the wheel speed.)
Greg
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
I just thought of the most serious of questions for your off-grid setup.
What will you be using to connect to the internet and share your cabin progress with us?? Cell phone or satelite? We will need updates (and help).
Ummmmmm . . . . . . . . . . :roll: I was sort of just keeping my mouth shut on that one, but since you asked...... It will probably be through less-than-honest methods, thanks to the wonderful world of Wi-Fi. I have already converted an old digital satellite dish to a long range directional Wi-Fi antenna. It should have a range of 7 miles as is, and, if I add an amplifier, I can probably push it up to 25 miles range in perfect conditions.
So, how likely is it to pick up Wi-Fi signal? Well, for my own entertainment, I tossed my laptop (which I bought when I finally decided to go off-grid) in the car, only using it's very limited internal antenna, and activated a program that scans for Wi-Fi network signals. During my 37.5 mile drive to work, I picked up . . . . ya ready for this . . . . 287 network signals. Of those I'd say 200 were strong enough to use, and of that 90%, or 180 were unsecured networks, meaning I could have connected to the internet, unrestricted, with any one of them.
But, I'm not making any attempts to hack into computers on those networks, rather, simply sharing the internet connection. Some argue if it's a crime, and perhaps some places it is, but mostly, I think it's probably not. I think it's looked down upon, and simply turning on the network security option prevents others from connecting to the it.
I compare it to someone watching their TV that faces the large bay window in the front of their house, and having someone out on the street looking in watching your TV. Is it a crime? Not in my opinion, but others might think so.
Anyhow, if I were able to find a decent signal from a neighbor nearby, I think I'd approach them with an offer to split their internet costs if they allowed me to install a better antenna.
Worst case senerio will have me driving into a more populated area to aquire a signal.
Oh, and Rick . . . . . . stop teasing the badgers! :lol:
off-grid email
Ummmmmm . . . . . . . . . . :roll: I was sort of just keeping my mouth shut on that one, but since you asked...... It will probably be through less-than-honest methods, thanks to the wonderful world of Wi-Fi. I have already converted an old digital satellite dish to a long range directional Wi-Fi antenna. It should have a range of 7 miles as is, and, if I add an amplifier, I can probably push it up to 25 miles range in perfect conditions.
Rod: how bout a member's update on your antenna? Maybe some specs (how you made it) and performance (workable distance) and operation (aiming). I was wondering if you looked into "cantenna's" as they are directional and VERY cheap to build. Evidently they use them in Africa to send a normal Wi-Fi signal for miles in a chain (~6 miles/link).
Wireless Wifi
I came real close to pairing up a hybrid Cantenna to the dish, but after some mental visualizations, I don't think it would develop the right radiance patten to work well with a parabolic dish. The Cantenna generates a somewhat directional beam, really only hitting a portion of the dish, and not at the appropriate angle. The solution was a more or less semi-hemispherical emittance pattern biquad antenna to cast the right pattern onto the dish.
Alright, basically, I built the biquad antenna from designs spelled out at http://www.trevormarshall.com/biquad.htm and http://martybugs.net/wireless/biquad/ and a few changes of my own. (namely, a connector instead of a directly soldering in the cable) There is an error in the design of the first site listed, (improperly connected the radiator element to the ground plane) but I liked the ground plane design he used, and duplicated it from solid copper flashing. The second page is pretty much exactly how I built the element, with the exception that I soldered a piece of 12 ga. copper from the center pin of the N connector, which came up through the center of the 1/2" pipe, then got soldered to the element as shown on the second site.
As for the dish itself, not much mods there. It's an early Primestar dish, when they were still quite big. I (foolishly) tossed the clamp that held the old emitter/receiver when I junked it, so I found a pipe ground clamp that fit in it's place to secure the biquad antenna. (clamped in a piece of rubber hose to prevent the ground plane becoming part of the dish's support arms) I "aluminized" the surface of the parabola with upholstery spray adhesive and aluminum foil, in hopes for even better reflectivity. (will it have any effect who knows, but it was a cheap step) Finally, I sprayed the whole thing with some white texture paint to make it look pretty. Here are some completed pics of it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/wifi3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/wifi1.jpg
I meant to make an aiming device before I painted it, but in my haste, it slipped my mind. The plan was to, while the shiny aluminum foil was still exposed, to aim the dish at the sun so the focal point met at the location of the biquad's position. Once that was set, a small 1/4" ID tube about 10" in length was to be fastened to the dish somewhere, where the sunlight would pass perfectly through it. That tube would then indicate the exact beam path, and could be sighted through for aiming purposes. In general though, the bottom of the dish lined up with the top edge of the biquad is pretty much the sightline of the beam angle.
OK, so performance numbers . . . . . . . . . . . well, it never got used. Turns out that I got an excellent deal on a complete commercial 100Mbps Wifi bridge. (two dishes, two routers, two power injectors, [not to be mistaken for amplifiers] and all the wiring and connecting hardware) So the homebuilt dish currently resides in my truck, and I sure would like to find it a home for someone who could use it. (shipping it isn't an option though, so please don't ask) I should really give it a test run and see what it can do. Town is only a about 3 miles away, not hardly a good test. It should actually outperform my commercial dishes, BUT it should also be noted, as built, it will be operating above FCC set db limits. Shhhhhh. :-)
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
Smoke signals for sure. :D
I'll be using satelite connection. The neighbors have it, and it works better then their cell phone!
Rick - I've seen trouble! And it DID have your name on it??? (How's Sue?)
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
Rod,
I just thought of the most serious of questions for your off-grid setup.
What will you be using to connect to the internet and share your cabin progress with us?? Cell phone or satelite? We will need updates (and help).
So, I've pretty well decided to go off grid
Sell the Tornado?!! Rod! Say it ain't so!!
Guy Truax flew the first Thundergull cross country.
The Tornado could easily do the same and we have
a long driveway. Plenty long for take offs and landings
when you decide to come and visit.
I understand your hesitance over diesel generators
but take a look at More Power to You by Skip Thomsen,
and also go to www.utterpower.com. I'm thinking I can
generate my own power for about 2 1/2 cents-Kw/h.
Of course that is with monoglycerides for start up and
shut down. The rest of the run time would be on tri-
glycerides. Ring hydrocabon fuels are just too expensive.
The good news is that I already have an 8Kw genset just
waiting to be installed.
A few years back I visited the sister of a friend. She and
her husband had built a house with a Russian stove sitting
right in the center of it. Uses very little wood and I was very
impressed. I plan to install one in our log house.
I grew up on the occasional use of the wood fired kitchen
stove. Loved waking to the smells of the coffee pot simmering
on the back of the stove, eggs and bacon frying, and the crackle
of cedar. You're right...just too hot to have inside in the summer.
I'm also looking into an outside kitchen area...maybe 16'x16'.
I just might want to cook with a 357 magnum handy. Bears,
badgers and racoons can become very agressive around food.
Don't underestimate those dang racoons. They are nothing
more than a cute badger! A few weeks ago one came after me.
I was able to get inside the car before he got to me. Only beat
him by a few feet! This wasn't even at the place we're building
out in the wood. This was at our present home right inside the
Wenatchee city limits! Cranky little things! Of course, there was
a reason he came after me, but that's a story along the lines of
the porta-potty and getting hit with 2 x 12 rafters. Trouble is
always out there, I just seem to entice it to come after me. :oops:
Looks like you've really thought this through. I'm thinking
you'll do well in meeting your off the grid goals. Hope you do well
with it and don't forget to pass on the information.
-Rick
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
This is what I would like to have instead of batteries.
http://www.vrbpower.com/technology/index.html
But I imagine when and if they start making these for home use they will be ridiculously expensive.
P.S. Hopefully it was a ferret on your keyboard and not a saber tooth squirrel..... :D
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
When I can afford one, I will buy a portable generator to add to my menagerie.
Here's a link for a forum on solar energy.
http://www.wind-sun.com/smf/index.php
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
Yeah, I was looking for an inverter to put in my truck to run smaller (1500w or less) loads with if we did not have a power hookup when starting to build.
I guess if I was really serious about it, I could find 12 or 24v dc motors to use, or just get a generator for supliment power.
Definately going to look for more info on a solar backup system.
Jeff
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
Finding inverters that work like that might be tricky. See if you can find an inverter for 220v at your bank voltage.
To find out how much power the well will draw from the batteries, you need to know the amps the well draws. Take the amps and multiply by it's volts, then add 12% for inverter efficiency losses, (typ. pure sine wave inverter loss) and then divide by battery bank voltage to get amps drawn from the batteries.
Example: 6A x 220V = 1320 + 12% = 1478 / 12V = 123A
Not exactly correct that way, but close. In reality, it's 125A in that example.
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
It's too late for me in many ways, not just batteries!
The problem that I had, was that the solar array was torn off from its mounting in high winds, and was disconnected from the batteries. The inverter didn't know that, so it just kept pumping out the power until the batteries were too low to produce enough. Since I can only get up to the place every couple of weeks, the condition could not be corrected, so the damage was done! It wasn't neglect. Honest! Ok, stupidity maybe... but definately not neglect!
For those who have places in remote locations, it is a good idea to befriend a non-drunk neighbor, so you have someone who can keep an eye on things. I have a neighbor who is a great guy. He has keys to my place (now), so that in an emergency he can gain access and at least, shut things down.
So, I've pretty well decided to go off-grid
Continuing on sources of batteries, another place to look to is the telephone companies. Next time you see a service truck out there on the road working on a pole, pull over and start a conversation with the lineman. The phone company uses what are sometimes known as "jar cells" or "jar batteries" for certain components they use. They are large batteries, often made with a clear case so you can see the internals. They are only "single cell" batteries, meaning they only put out a bit over 2 volts but huge capacity, and with strings of 6 or 12 cells, can get you the required voltages needed. They are built to last, and are often will last 25+ years. . . . . . Anyhow, back to the lineman. Perhaps, with a case of ice cold beer, you might be able to get some information about where you could acquire these wonderful cells at affordable (maybe free) prices.
Batteries are the most neglected of all power systems. Most folks don't even think twice about them until they aren't doing what they are suppose to be doing, and by then, it's too late. So for dbtoo, and anyone wanting to know how to care for their battery banks, (actually, it's probably too late for you dbtoo) take a look at this page: http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_battery_care.html It's easy maintenance that will make your batteries last much, much longer.